--- In f..., Hellwig Geisse
wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-08-10 at 14:04 +0000, e2kcpu wrote:
> > OK. You only ported LCC to it ?
> Yes. This was in fact very easy.
I know. It usually takes just few days to get working result from it.
Did it once for an SIMD machine. But all the progress is going to the
x86 platform, so I don't care anymore about it.
> > Ever took a look at PCC ? Produces much better code
...
>
> No, I didn't. I'm surprised to see that it now understands
> ANSI-C. Very interesting, thanks.
The optimizer is nice ...
And MUCH simpler than GNU ;-)
But probably GNU is still doable for you, as you "seem" to be close to
MIPS ...
Cheers
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Small CPUs in FPGAs
Started by ●July 31, 2008
Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
--- In f..., "bfranchuk@..." wrote:
>
> Well I like CPLD's rather than FPGA's since you don't need a boot
> prom for the CPLD's.
You don't have to use a boot prom. There are a number of flash based
FPGAs from Lattice and Altera makes some parts that are more FPGA than
CPLD and are flash based. Check out the Lattice XP and XP2 devices.
No boot prom required. They have both SRAM and Flash, so you can run
the FPGA from SRAM while updating the Flash without disruption.
> The maintance manuals for the PDP's are on-line
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ I suspect that is where to start
> as well as looking at Simh for emulation as the hardware for the old
> machines had a lot of gota ya's design features based on qurks of the
> hardware used. A simple PDP8 with 4K of memory is easy ...
> A full featured one with hardware floating point, 32K of memory
> and timeshareing hardware is very tricky make right.
Any idea how many LUTs a PDP8 would be?
Rick
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>
> Well I like CPLD's rather than FPGA's since you don't need a boot
> prom for the CPLD's.
You don't have to use a boot prom. There are a number of flash based
FPGAs from Lattice and Altera makes some parts that are more FPGA than
CPLD and are flash based. Check out the Lattice XP and XP2 devices.
No boot prom required. They have both SRAM and Flash, so you can run
the FPGA from SRAM while updating the Flash without disruption.
> The maintance manuals for the PDP's are on-line
> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ I suspect that is where to start
> as well as looking at Simh for emulation as the hardware for the old
> machines had a lot of gota ya's design features based on qurks of the
> hardware used. A simple PDP8 with 4K of memory is easy ...
> A full featured one with hardware floating point, 32K of memory
> and timeshareing hardware is very tricky make right.
Any idea how many LUTs a PDP8 would be?
Rick
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
Hellwig Geisse wrote:
> On Sun, 2008-08-10 at 14:04 +0000, e2kcpu wrote:
>
>
>> OK. You only ported LCC to it ?
>>
>
> Yes. This was in fact very easy.
>
>
>> Ever took a look at PCC ? Produces much better code ...
>>
>
> No, I didn't. I'm surprised to see that it now understands
> ANSI-C. Very interesting, thanks.
>
I may how ever, as I planning a 16/32 bit CPU
but limited to only 20 bits of addressing.
(My PC clone ):)
Tiny C 1.0
I can get to comple but not version # 2 as the logic
is too hacked for peephole optimization.
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> On Sun, 2008-08-10 at 14:04 +0000, e2kcpu wrote:
>
>
>> OK. You only ported LCC to it ?
>>
>
> Yes. This was in fact very easy.
>
>
>> Ever took a look at PCC ? Produces much better code ...
>>
>
> No, I didn't. I'm surprised to see that it now understands
> ANSI-C. Very interesting, thanks.
>
I may how ever, as I planning a 16/32 bit CPU
but limited to only 20 bits of addressing.
(My PC clone ):)
Tiny C 1.0
I can get to comple but not version # 2 as the logic
is too hacked for peephole optimization.
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
--- In f..., "bfranchuk@..." wrote:
> Well I like CPLD's rather than FPGA's since you don't need a boot
> prom for the CPLD's.
But there is also an upside to it. Since the newer FPGAs can also boot
from standard SPI flash, and this is usually much bigger than you need
it, you can use the remaining flash for you uCode. Boot your FPGA, and
shift the uCode into your uCode SRAM. Very nice ...
Cheers
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> Well I like CPLD's rather than FPGA's since you don't need a boot
> prom for the CPLD's.
But there is also an upside to it. Since the newer FPGAs can also boot
from standard SPI flash, and this is usually much bigger than you need
it, you can use the remaining flash for you uCode. Boot your FPGA, and
shift the uCode into your uCode SRAM. Very nice ...
Cheers
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
e2kcpu wrote:
> I thought you have already boards with 2901/2903 in CPLDs ?
>
>
The real ones are cheap! This was a PROM, 2901 design
but I am using a CPLD rather than 512x8 proms since
I have the CPLD development kit here.
I know that 2901's can be synthesized but I don't have
a VHDL or VERLOG compiler.
> Cheers
>
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> I thought you have already boards with 2901/2903 in CPLDs ?
>
>
The real ones are cheap! This was a PROM, 2901 design
but I am using a CPLD rather than 512x8 proms since
I have the CPLD development kit here.
I know that 2901's can be synthesized but I don't have
a VHDL or VERLOG compiler.
> Cheers
>
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
Rick Collins wrote:
> --- In f..., "bfranchuk@..." wrote:
>
>> Well I like CPLD's rather than FPGA's since you don't need a boot
>> prom for the CPLD's.
>>
>
> You don't have to use a boot prom. There are a number of flash based
> FPGAs from Lattice and Altera makes some parts that are more FPGA than
> CPLD and are flash based. Check out the Lattice XP and XP2 devices.
> No boot prom required. They have both SRAM and Flash, so you can run
> the FPGA from SRAM while updating the Flash without disruption.
>
I have not looked at the newer stuff in about 5 years.
That was when I got CPLD deveopment kit.
>> The maintance manuals for the PDP's are on-line
>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ I suspect that is where to start
>> as well as looking at Simh for emulation as the hardware for the old
>> machines had a lot of gota ya's design features based on qurks of the
>> hardware used. A simple PDP8 with 4K of memory is easy ...
>> A full featured one with hardware floating point, 32K of memory
>> and timeshareing hardware is very tricky make right.
>>
>
> Any idea how many LUTs a PDP8 would be?
>
>
Lots because of the random control logic and complex registers.
Some body has done a FPGA version on the web so look there.
> Rick
>
>
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> --- In f..., "bfranchuk@..." wrote:
>
>> Well I like CPLD's rather than FPGA's since you don't need a boot
>> prom for the CPLD's.
>>
>
> You don't have to use a boot prom. There are a number of flash based
> FPGAs from Lattice and Altera makes some parts that are more FPGA than
> CPLD and are flash based. Check out the Lattice XP and XP2 devices.
> No boot prom required. They have both SRAM and Flash, so you can run
> the FPGA from SRAM while updating the Flash without disruption.
>
I have not looked at the newer stuff in about 5 years.
That was when I got CPLD deveopment kit.
>> The maintance manuals for the PDP's are on-line
>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/ I suspect that is where to start
>> as well as looking at Simh for emulation as the hardware for the old
>> machines had a lot of gota ya's design features based on qurks of the
>> hardware used. A simple PDP8 with 4K of memory is easy ...
>> A full featured one with hardware floating point, 32K of memory
>> and timeshareing hardware is very tricky make right.
>>
>
> Any idea how many LUTs a PDP8 would be?
>
>
Lots because of the random control logic and complex registers.
Some body has done a FPGA version on the web so look there.
> Rick
>
>
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
b...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>
>> Any idea how many LUTs a PDP8 would be?
>>
>>
>>
> Lots because of the random control logic and complex registers.
> Some body has done a FPGA version on the web so look there.
>
>> Rick
>>
start here pdp8/x
http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp8x/
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>>>
>>>
>> Any idea how many LUTs a PDP8 would be?
>>
>>
>>
> Lots because of the random control logic and complex registers.
> Some body has done a FPGA version on the web so look there.
>
>> Rick
>>
start here pdp8/x
http://homepage.mac.com/dgcx/pdp8x/
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
--- In f..., "bfranchuk@..." wrote:
>
> I know that 2901's can be synthesized but I don't have
> a VHDL or VERLOG compiler.
Why ?
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>
> I know that 2901's can be synthesized but I don't have
> a VHDL or VERLOG compiler.
Why ?
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
--- In f..., "Rick Collins" wrote:
>
> [xr16 ...] was completely published
> and an LCC port was provided. The gr0040 was not fully documented and
> the web site even says the compiler was ported, but not provided.
Did you get a response from Jan Gray, if he even thinks about
releasing the gr0040, gr0050 and tools ?
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>
> [xr16 ...] was completely published
> and an LCC port was provided. The gr0040 was not fully documented and
> the web site even says the compiler was ported, but not provided.
Did you get a response from Jan Gray, if he even thinks about
releasing the gr0040, gr0050 and tools ?
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Reply by ●August 10, 20082008-08-10
> Even with out front panels, here is some food for
thought
> for a nice machine that is begging to be re-implimented again
> in hardware.
>
> -------------------
> Those with an interest in the ETH Lilith Modula-2 should point
their FTP
> clients to
> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/lilith
>
> where they will find plenty of data concerning that machine.
>
> Most important is a binary image of the Lilith Systemdisk, and a
> directory containing all files ( more then 700..) of that
systemdisk.
>
> Among these files are :
>
> Medos binaries and source code.
> Modula-2 compiler binaries with source code.
> Lilith system utilities with source code.
> Bootfiles and system files.
> Microcode sources and assembler
> Manual
> Also available are hardware docu and some screenshots.
>
> Enjoy ,
>
> Jos Dreesen
>
> Server is on a basic DSL line, so download speeds will vary....
> ---------------
>
I have always been a huge fan of Niklaus Wirth and I have attempted
to build a similar processor for the P4 P-Code. I really liked using
UCSD Pascal in the early days until the licenses were revoked.
Bummer...
The Lilith project is VERY interesting. It will be quite easy to
increase the speed by an order of magnitude. The 64 bit memory will
be an issue when using FPGA development boards. I'll have to look
into that.
I have been banging your DSL all morning downloading everything in
sight.
The only retro projects I am excited about are those with complete
software.
I'm going to be looking very hard at this project.
Richard
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> for a nice machine that is begging to be re-implimented again
> in hardware.
>
> -------------------
> Those with an interest in the ETH Lilith Modula-2 should point
their FTP
> clients to
> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/lilith
>
> where they will find plenty of data concerning that machine.
>
> Most important is a binary image of the Lilith Systemdisk, and a
> directory containing all files ( more then 700..) of that
systemdisk.
>
> Among these files are :
>
> Medos binaries and source code.
> Modula-2 compiler binaries with source code.
> Lilith system utilities with source code.
> Bootfiles and system files.
> Microcode sources and assembler
> Manual
> Also available are hardware docu and some screenshots.
>
> Enjoy ,
>
> Jos Dreesen
>
> Server is on a basic DSL line, so download speeds will vary....
> ---------------
>
I have always been a huge fan of Niklaus Wirth and I have attempted
to build a similar processor for the P4 P-Code. I really liked using
UCSD Pascal in the early days until the licenses were revoked.
Bummer...
The Lilith project is VERY interesting. It will be quite easy to
increase the speed by an order of magnitude. The 64 bit memory will
be an issue when using FPGA development boards. I'll have to look
into that.
I have been banging your DSL all morning downloading everything in
sight.
The only retro projects I am excited about are those with complete
software.
I'm going to be looking very hard at this project.
Richard
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To unsubscribe, send a blank message to: f...
