Paul Curtis wrote:
> Hi Al,
>
>> But motorsport isn't a simple task, and NEEDS the power, especially
>> F1, there is no such thing as enough power in an F1 car Ecclestone
>> has it all wrong!.
>
> My Elise doesn't NEED the power, but certainly I still contemplate
> shoving a Honda K20A in it... That is simple. :-)
>
Nah, this is the way to spiff up a Lotus Elise:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYtT_ECcZ1I
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Is the MSP430 a dead end
Started by ●June 28, 2013
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
Onestone wrote:
[...]
> My very first electronic computer was home made with a 25A power supply
> and a massive 256 bytes of RAM. ...
I can top that. My first digital piece if electronics had a 1k memory.
1k as in 1024 bits (not bytes).
[...]
>>
>> On 1/07/2013 5:10 PM, Matthias Weingart wrote:
>>
[...]
>>
>>> Things change: what I see is now are the "Makers". People that like to
>>> create things - many of them are having a RepRap (3D printer), use
>>> ready made electronic modules (Arduino, Raspberrypie) and live in the
>>> new communities (facebook and co). It is a new kind of movement I
>>> think - not like us old hackers - with secret spartanic lists and only
>>> 2k RAM. :-)
I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
real instead of drugs. There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
component level design. They can plug together modules but cannot design
the modules. That's not enough in the long run, just like the ability to
rip open and plop a TV-dinner package in the microwave doesn't make
people good cooks.
This is where TI MSP430 modules come in. They are cheap and work well.
But you have to build some component-level hardware around them in order
to make them do something meaningful in life.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
[...]
> My very first electronic computer was home made with a 25A power supply
> and a massive 256 bytes of RAM. ...
I can top that. My first digital piece if electronics had a 1k memory.
1k as in 1024 bits (not bytes).
[...]
>>
>> On 1/07/2013 5:10 PM, Matthias Weingart wrote:
>>
[...]
>>
>>> Things change: what I see is now are the "Makers". People that like to
>>> create things - many of them are having a RepRap (3D printer), use
>>> ready made electronic modules (Arduino, Raspberrypie) and live in the
>>> new communities (facebook and co). It is a new kind of movement I
>>> think - not like us old hackers - with secret spartanic lists and only
>>> 2k RAM. :-)
I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
real instead of drugs. There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
component level design. They can plug together modules but cannot design
the modules. That's not enough in the long run, just like the ability to
rip open and plop a TV-dinner package in the microwave doesn't make
people good cooks.
This is where TI MSP430 modules come in. They are cheap and work well.
But you have to build some component-level hardware around them in order
to make them do something meaningful in life.
[...]
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
Joerg :
> I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
> real instead of drugs. There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
> systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
> component level design.
However - some of them are interested and go the level deeper and get into
the firmware and hardware design. It is quite good to have a simple entry
into our world with the "Makers movement" :-).
M.
> I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
> real instead of drugs. There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
> systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
> component level design.
However - some of them are interested and go the level deeper and get into
the firmware and hardware design. It is quite good to have a simple entry
into our world with the "Makers movement" :-).
M.
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
>> ...but on the other side I hate
>> the tendency to throw insane power at simple tasks that don't need it.
>
> One assumes that this excludes motorsport? ;-)
On the contrary, developing 1500 HP from a 1.5 liter engine and
getting it to last for the duration of a race is quite the
optimization challenge!
-p.
>> ...but on the other side I hate
>> the tendency to throw insane power at simple tasks that don't need it.
>
> One assumes that this excludes motorsport? ;-)
On the contrary, developing 1500 HP from a 1.5 liter engine and
getting it to last for the duration of a race is quite the
optimization challenge!
-p.
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
> I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
> real instead of drugs.
Also, television and video games...
> There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
> systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
> component level design. They can plug together modules but cannot design
> the modules.
I agree entirely. It is an interesting problem, one I have thought
about a fair bit.
What is lacking are the educational materials that bootstrap learning
from first principles, and presenting them in such a way that people
maintain interest in our ADD society.
The further problem is that there is very little money in doing this.
The people who know how to develop boards and write libraries are much
more likely to go that route. Of course, the real money comes in
selling these modules. Heck, you could probably afford 20,000 square
feet in downtown Manhattan selling modules...
> This is where TI MSP430 modules come in. They are cheap and work well.
> But you have to build some component-level hardware around them in order
> to make them do something meaningful in life.
I would argue that TI produced the perfect educator's tool in the
MSP430 Launchpad, but unfortunately they have failed miserably at
developing the coursework materials to make it useful to educators and
students.
To make matters worse, they now seem to be pushing the Energia Arduino
platform which does everything to obscure the beauty of the MSP430
chips themselves.
-p.
> I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
> real instead of drugs.
Also, television and video games...
> There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
> systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
> component level design. They can plug together modules but cannot design
> the modules.
I agree entirely. It is an interesting problem, one I have thought
about a fair bit.
What is lacking are the educational materials that bootstrap learning
from first principles, and presenting them in such a way that people
maintain interest in our ADD society.
The further problem is that there is very little money in doing this.
The people who know how to develop boards and write libraries are much
more likely to go that route. Of course, the real money comes in
selling these modules. Heck, you could probably afford 20,000 square
feet in downtown Manhattan selling modules...
> This is where TI MSP430 modules come in. They are cheap and work well.
> But you have to build some component-level hardware around them in order
> to make them do something meaningful in life.
I would argue that TI produced the perfect educator's tool in the
MSP430 Launchpad, but unfortunately they have failed miserably at
developing the coursework materials to make it useful to educators and
students.
To make matters worse, they now seem to be pushing the Energia Arduino
platform which does everything to obscure the beauty of the MSP430
chips themselves.
-p.
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
no it does need it ;) that's why we have 700HP+ exige's
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
> Hi Al,
>
>> But motorsport isn't a simple task, and NEEDS the power, especially F1,
>> there is no such thing as enough power in an F1 car Ecclestone has it all
>> wrong!.
>
> My Elise doesn't NEED the power, but certainly I still contemplate shoving a Honda K20A in it... That is simple. :-)
>
> --
> Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
> SolderCore Development Platform http://www.soldercore.com
>
>
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 6:50 AM, Paul Curtis wrote:
> Hi Al,
>
>> But motorsport isn't a simple task, and NEEDS the power, especially F1,
>> there is no such thing as enough power in an F1 car Ecclestone has it all
>> wrong!.
>
> My Elise doesn't NEED the power, but certainly I still contemplate shoving a Honda K20A in it... That is simple. :-)
>
> --
> Paul Curtis, Rowley Associates Ltd http://www.rowley.co.uk
> SolderCore Development Platform http://www.soldercore.com
>
>
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
Ford Cosworth RS-200 the old Group B Pro rally car. !! J
From: m... [mailto:m...] On Behalf
Of Peter Johansson
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:14 PM
To: m...
Subject: Re: [msp430] Re: Is the MSP430 a dead end
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Paul Curtis > wrote:
>> ...but on the other side I hate
>> the tendency to throw insane power at simple tasks that don't need
it.
>
> One assumes that this excludes motorsport? ;-)
On the contrary, developing 1500 HP from a 1.5 liter engine and
getting it to last for the duration of a race is quite the
optimization challenge!
-p.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: m... [mailto:m...] On Behalf
Of Peter Johansson
Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2013 1:14 PM
To: m...
Subject: Re: [msp430] Re: Is the MSP430 a dead end
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 9:03 AM, Paul Curtis > wrote:
>> ...but on the other side I hate
>> the tendency to throw insane power at simple tasks that don't need
it.
>
> One assumes that this excludes motorsport? ;-)
On the contrary, developing 1500 HP from a 1.5 liter engine and
getting it to last for the duration of a race is quite the
optimization challenge!
-p.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
On 2 Jul 2013, at 19:56, charlie wallace wrote:
> no it does need it ;) that's why we have 700HP+ exile's
>
But it's not a standard option--and in the UK, if you have any exotic mod, you pay through the nose for insurance. I have my Elise on "old fart" insurance, less than 7k miles per year, no mods to it. I think it's going to be a K20A conversion for, perhaps, my 50th
-- Paul.
> no it does need it ;) that's why we have 700HP+ exile's
>
But it's not a standard option--and in the UK, if you have any exotic mod, you pay through the nose for insurance. I have my Elise on "old fart" insurance, less than 7k miles per year, no mods to it. I think it's going to be a K20A conversion for, perhaps, my 50th
-- Paul.
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
Peter Johansson wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
>> real instead of drugs.
>
> Also, television and video games...
>
The real problem are parents that buy them just about anything. No
incentive to build and repair.
>> There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
>> systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
>> component level design. They can plug together modules but cannot design
>> the modules.
>
> I agree entirely. It is an interesting problem, one I have thought
> about a fair bit.
>
> What is lacking are the educational materials that bootstrap learning
> from first principles, and presenting them in such a way that people
> maintain interest in our ADD society.
>
I don't think that is a valid excuse. When I grew up we had little in
educational material. Electronics books were very expensive so I had to
bicycle five miles to a library and then back. Often just to find out
that all the books for TTL logic design had been taken by others. Then
all you could do is put in a request, which was fulfilled in four weeks.
If the other guys brought it back in time ...
> The further problem is that there is very little money in doing this.
> The people who know how to develop boards and write libraries are much
> more likely to go that route. Of course, the real money comes in
> selling these modules. Heck, you could probably afford 20,000 square
> feet in downtown Manhattan selling modules...
>
People I've met weren't really getting rich off of this. And with TI I
would not be surprised if the profit margin on MSP430 modules is zero or
negative. When one guy at a TI seminar asked if he could buy several
thousand the presenter almost choked. Then he said "Well, that wasn't
really the intent and could be a problem".
>> This is where TI MSP430 modules come in. They are cheap and work well.
>> But you have to build some component-level hardware around them in order
>> to make them do something meaningful in life.
>
> I would argue that TI produced the perfect educator's tool in the
> MSP430 Launchpad, but unfortunately they have failed miserably at
> developing the coursework materials to make it useful to educators and
> students.
>
But I would expect our taxpayer-paid educators to do the educatin' and
writin' :-)
> To make matters worse, they now seem to be pushing the Energia Arduino
> platform which does everything to obscure the beauty of the MSP430
> chips themselves.
>
That's IMHO the wong path. If people want system building blocks they'll
quickly head over to some vastly more powerful processor.
But as Matthias wrote, there are always some folks from the maker group
who dive in backwards later and learn component-level design. IME they
are far too few though. Whenever I helped clients find good board-level
designers it was a painfully difficult process.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>> I like this maker movement because it gets kids interested in something
>> real instead of drugs.
>
> Also, television and video games...
>
The real problem are parents that buy them just about anything. No
incentive to build and repair.
>> There is only one problem: Makers are essentially
>> systems guys. Many lose or never even acquire any serious know-how about
>> component level design. They can plug together modules but cannot design
>> the modules.
>
> I agree entirely. It is an interesting problem, one I have thought
> about a fair bit.
>
> What is lacking are the educational materials that bootstrap learning
> from first principles, and presenting them in such a way that people
> maintain interest in our ADD society.
>
I don't think that is a valid excuse. When I grew up we had little in
educational material. Electronics books were very expensive so I had to
bicycle five miles to a library and then back. Often just to find out
that all the books for TTL logic design had been taken by others. Then
all you could do is put in a request, which was fulfilled in four weeks.
If the other guys brought it back in time ...
> The further problem is that there is very little money in doing this.
> The people who know how to develop boards and write libraries are much
> more likely to go that route. Of course, the real money comes in
> selling these modules. Heck, you could probably afford 20,000 square
> feet in downtown Manhattan selling modules...
>
People I've met weren't really getting rich off of this. And with TI I
would not be surprised if the profit margin on MSP430 modules is zero or
negative. When one guy at a TI seminar asked if he could buy several
thousand the presenter almost choked. Then he said "Well, that wasn't
really the intent and could be a problem".
>> This is where TI MSP430 modules come in. They are cheap and work well.
>> But you have to build some component-level hardware around them in order
>> to make them do something meaningful in life.
>
> I would argue that TI produced the perfect educator's tool in the
> MSP430 Launchpad, but unfortunately they have failed miserably at
> developing the coursework materials to make it useful to educators and
> students.
>
But I would expect our taxpayer-paid educators to do the educatin' and
writin' :-)
> To make matters worse, they now seem to be pushing the Energia Arduino
> platform which does everything to obscure the beauty of the MSP430
> chips themselves.
>
That's IMHO the wong path. If people want system building blocks they'll
quickly head over to some vastly more powerful processor.
But as Matthias wrote, there are always some folks from the maker group
who dive in backwards later and learn component-level design. IME they
are far too few though. Whenever I helped clients find good board-level
designers it was a painfully difficult process.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Reply by ●July 2, 20132013-07-02
On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 4:25 PM, Joerg wrote:
>> What is lacking are the educational materials that bootstrap learning
>> from first principles, and presenting them in such a way that people
>> maintain interest in our ADD society.
>
> I don't think that is a valid excuse. When I grew up we had little in
> educational material. Electronics books were very expensive so I had to
> bicycle five miles to a library and then back.
Ditto. The books in my elementary school library were written between
the late 1930s and early 1950s. How they wound up there in mid 1970s
when I found them is a bit of a mystery. In any case, I still
remember the following quote from one of the last chapters in one of
the latest books in a chapter on transistors, "If you are able to
afford one of these amazing devices, here are some circuits you can
build." I was rather confused for quite some time that I could buy a
dozen assorted transistors at Radio Shack for $1.99, yet the cheapest
vacuum tubes were $10.
In any case, things are changing a bit with a number of good tutorials
available on the web, and even videos on youtube. I was really
referring here to micro-controller development here, specifically the
msp430.
> People I've met weren't really getting rich off of this. And with TI I
> would not be surprised if the profit margin on MSP430 modules is zero or
> negative. When one guy at a TI seminar asked if he could buy several
> thousand the presenter almost choked. Then he said "Well, that wasn't
> really the intent and could be a problem".
Oh yes, at $4.30 the LaunchPad was clearly being sold at a loss.
Given their propensity to ship overnight, I am sure it was costing
them more than that just for shipping. Again, in this case I was
really referring to Arduinos and the related shields.
-p.
>> What is lacking are the educational materials that bootstrap learning
>> from first principles, and presenting them in such a way that people
>> maintain interest in our ADD society.
>
> I don't think that is a valid excuse. When I grew up we had little in
> educational material. Electronics books were very expensive so I had to
> bicycle five miles to a library and then back.
Ditto. The books in my elementary school library were written between
the late 1930s and early 1950s. How they wound up there in mid 1970s
when I found them is a bit of a mystery. In any case, I still
remember the following quote from one of the last chapters in one of
the latest books in a chapter on transistors, "If you are able to
afford one of these amazing devices, here are some circuits you can
build." I was rather confused for quite some time that I could buy a
dozen assorted transistors at Radio Shack for $1.99, yet the cheapest
vacuum tubes were $10.
In any case, things are changing a bit with a number of good tutorials
available on the web, and even videos on youtube. I was really
referring here to micro-controller development here, specifically the
msp430.
> People I've met weren't really getting rich off of this. And with TI I
> would not be surprised if the profit margin on MSP430 modules is zero or
> negative. When one guy at a TI seminar asked if he could buy several
> thousand the presenter almost choked. Then he said "Well, that wasn't
> really the intent and could be a problem".
Oh yes, at $4.30 the LaunchPad was clearly being sold at a loss.
Given their propensity to ship overnight, I am sure it was costing
them more than that just for shipping. Again, in this case I was
really referring to Arduinos and the related shields.
-p.
