PCB multiple designs surcharge

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
<me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:

>Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
>in a board.  They don't have to do any extra work or different
>processes than single design.  Why do they insist on this extra
>charge?  Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
>is just unnecessary hassle.
>
>I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
>number of customer designs?  For identical board area and spec, 4
>designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup.  Are
>different versions of the same board consider as different designs?

Might help if you identify which ones have given you this problem, and
to what extent.

When I am prototyping I have sent multiple designs on a single file to
one fab which I no longer use, and in production I have sent
two_on_a_board to PCBcart more than once and it was treated as one
job, one startup charge.

Let's face it, if they have a setup charge for a first_up or changed
job, they are covered.  You send a proto sheet and they hit you.  You
send a subsequent prod job with either single designs or chaged
multiples and ... they hit you.

I can only see one reason why they would do this - panelising and
separation.  With some fabs they set out clear router clearances for
panelising, so that it is practical to do your own.  Others won't do
this - I suspect they are the "job-bulkers" who take everybody's small
jobs and fit them onto a large panel which they then outsource to
another "sheet-only" house.  They figure if they re-lay your designs
with the other clients' work,  they might get a better fit/yield from
the sheet.  You can pick them when questions come back, they are
always quotes from the sheet-only man.  Been there, done that.

On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
<me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:

>Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
>in a board.  They don't have to do any extra work or different
>processes than single design.  Why do they insist on this extra
>charge?  Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
>is just unnecessary hassle.
>
>I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
>number of customer designs?  For identical board area and spec, 4
>designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup.  Are
>different versions of the same board consider as different designs?


My board house charged for a single board here:

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg

Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.

ONE of the circuits actually worked!

John

On Feb 7, 6:45=A0pm, who where <no...@home.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
>
> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> >Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
> >in a board. =A0They don't have to do any extra work or different
> >processes than single design. =A0Why do they insist on this extra
> >charge? =A0Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
> >is just unnecessary hassle.
>
> >I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
> >number of customer designs? =A0For identical board area and spec, 4
> >designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. =A0Are
> >different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
>
> Might help if you identify which ones have given you this problem, and
> to what extent.

I have encountered this both in US and China, PCBcart included.

>
> When I am prototyping I have sent multiple designs on a single file to
> one fab which I no longer use, and in production I have sent
> two_on_a_board to PCBcart more than once and it was treated as one
> job, one startup charge.

Take PCBcart for example:
size of board: 400mmx200mm
10 pcs @ $21 each

Setup cost based on number of designs:
1 126
2 138
3 151
4 163
5 189
6 252
7 283
8 315

I am willing to pay $163, but not $315.

>
> Let's face it, if they have a setup charge for a first_up or changed
> job, they are covered. =A0You send a proto sheet and they hit you. =A0You
> send a subsequent prod job with either single designs or chaged
> multiples and ... they hit you.
>
> I can only see one reason why they would do this - panelising and
> separation. =A0With some fabs they set out clear router clearances for
> panelising, so that it is practical to do your own. =A0Others won't do
> this - I suspect they are the "job-bulkers" who take everybody's small
> jobs and fit them onto a large panel which they then outsource to
> another "sheet-only" house. =A0They figure if they re-lay your designs
> with the other clients' work, =A0they might get a better fit/yield from
> the sheet. =A0You can pick them when questions come back, they are
> always quotes from the sheet-only man. =A0Been there, done that.

On Feb 7, 7:53=A0pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
>
> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> >Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
> >in a board. =A0They don't have to do any extra work or different
> >processes than single design. =A0Why do they insist on this extra
> >charge? =A0Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
> >is just unnecessary hassle.
>
> >I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
> >number of customer designs? =A0For identical board area and spec, 4
> >designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. =A0Are
> >different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
>
> My board house charged for a single board here:
>
> ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
>
> Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
>
> ONE of the circuits actually worked!
>
> John

Yes, I do exactly the same.  But some fab house would charge you for
10x to 15x setup costs.  Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
insist on paying 1x setup.  They just make me feel like I am cheating
them.

On Feb 7, 8:37=A0pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 7:53=A0pm, John Larkin
>
>
>
> <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
>
> > <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> > >Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
> > >in a board. =A0They don't have to do any extra work or different
> > >processes than single design. =A0Why do they insist on this extra
> > >charge? =A0Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
> > >is just unnecessary hassle.
>
> > >I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
> > >number of customer designs? =A0For identical board area and spec, 4
> > >designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. =A0Are
> > >different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
>
> > My board house charged for a single board here:
>
> >ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
>
> > Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
>
> > ONE of the circuits actually worked!
>
> > John
>
> Yes, I do exactly the same. =A0But some fab house would charge you for
> 10x to 15x setup costs. =A0Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
> insist on paying 1x setup. =A0They just make me feel like I am cheating
> them.

Name them and shame them. That will stop the practice.

linnix wrote:
> On Feb 7, 4:00 pm, -jg <jim.granvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Feb 8, 12:14 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Feb 7, 2:46 pm, -jg <jim.granvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 8, 10:53 am, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>>>>> Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
>>>>> in a board.  They don't have to do any extra work or different
>>>>> processes than single design.  Why do they insist on this extra
>>>>> charge?  
>>>>  If you give them single-panel gerbers and drill info,
>>>> I am sure there is no adder.
>>> Yes.  I am sending a single set of files with matching pads and drills
>>> in all my designs.  I use the same set of data for all the designs.  I
>>> have 4 projects with 8 versions.  I have to declare it as 1 board, or
>>> 4 designs (30% more) or 8 designs (100% more).
>> Then I would bleat as well.
>>
>> Tell them it is one panel, and one project.
> 
> In one case, I paid and submitted files.  They saw different
> functional blocks and wanted to charge more.  I told them to cancel
> the order and they back off.  Another fab's web says that they are
> trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
> submit multiple orders.  By killing us (designers), I don't know how
> they can create more jobs for them.

Sales Speak: profit


> 
>> They really should not care what paths the copper happens to take!!.
>>
>> They might charge for more complex routing, but that's usually a
>> separate charge.
>>
>> -jg
> 

linnix wrote:
> On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>> linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us>
>>   wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
>>
>>> In one case, I paid and submitted files.  They saw different
>>> functional blocks and wanted to charge more.  I told them to cancel
>>> the order and they back off.  Another fab's web says that they are
>>> trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
>>> submit multiple orders.  By killing us (designers), I don't know how
>>> they can create more jobs for them.
>> So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
>> functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more?
>> Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging
>> approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
> 
> Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line.  Usually, I
> can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
> Am I the only one having these experiences?
> 
> By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
> for money issues.

No, you are not alone.

4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!

> 
>> Surely the cost should be based on simple quantifiable entities like:
>> layers, holes, number of holes sizes (tools), area (of input panel),
>> finishes (gold, soldermask, silk) and suchlike.
>>
>> Who cares how many notional designs are on the board?
>>
>> --
>> Tim Watts
>>
>> Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.
> 

On Feb 7, 7:34=A0pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
> On Feb 7, 4:28=A0pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
>
> > linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us>
> > =A0 wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
>
> > > In one case, I paid and submitted files. =A0They saw different
> > > functional blocks and wanted to charge more. =A0I told them to cancel
> > > the order and they back off. =A0Another fab's web says that they are
> > > trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
> > > submit multiple orders. =A0By killing us (designers), I don't know ho=
w
> > > they can create more jobs for them.
>
> > So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
> > functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge =
more?
> > Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided chargin=
g
> > approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
>
> Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. =A0Usually, I
> can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
> Am I the only one having these experiences?
>
> By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
> for money issues.
>
>
>
> > Surely the cost should be based on simple quantifiable entities like:
> > layers, holes, number of holes sizes (tools), area (of input panel),
> > finishes (gold, soldermask, silk) and suchlike.
>
> > Who cares how many notional designs are on the board?

I was once trying to get a board house to fab a PWB that was only 1 x
0.5 inches and wanted a few dozen on a panel and several panels.  They
wanted to charge me *per board* at their minimum rate even if they
didn't rout or separate the boards.  Their minimum rate was $4 per!!!
Needless to say I didn't use them.  IIRC, there was more than one
place that insisted on charging that way.

Rick

On Feb 7, 9:28=A0pm, don <don> wrote:
> linnix wrote:
> > On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote:
> >> linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us>
> >> =A0 wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18
>
> >>> In one case, I paid and submitted files. =A0They saw different
> >>> functional blocks and wanted to charge more. =A0I told them to cancel
> >>> the order and they back off. =A0Another fab's web says that they are
> >>> trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to
> >>> submit multiple orders. =A0By killing us (designers), I don't know ho=
w
> >>> they can create more jobs for them.
> >> So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the
> >> functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge=
 more?
> >> Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided chargi=
ng
> >> approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA.
>
> > Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. =A0Usually, I
> > can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense.
> > Am I the only one having these experiences?
>
> > By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except
> > for money issues.
>
> No, you are not alone.
>
> 4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!!

But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat.  All else being
equal.  They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design,  $163 if 4 designs
and $315 if 8 designs.  They do exactly the same work regardless.

miso@sushi.com wrote:
> On Feb 7, 8:37 pm, linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>> On Feb 7, 7:53 pm, John Larkin
>>
>>
>>
>> <jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix
>>> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:
>>>> Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined
>>>> in a board.  They don't have to do any extra work or different
>>>> processes than single design.  Why do they insist on this extra
>>>> charge?  Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this
>>>> is just unnecessary hassle.
>>>> I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about
>>>> number of customer designs?  For identical board area and spec, 4
>>>> designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup.  Are
>>>> different versions of the same board consider as different designs?
>>> My board house charged for a single board here:
>>> ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg
>>> Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout.
>>> ONE of the circuits actually worked!
>>> John
>> Yes, I do exactly the same.  But some fab house would charge you for
>> 10x to 15x setup costs.  Of course, I can ignore my conscience and
>> insist on paying 1x setup.  They just make me feel like I am cheating
>> them.
> 
> Name them and shame them. That will stop the practice.

Yes, I don't understand why he doesn't just mention the names so we all 
will know who to avoid (or whom we might send an email to tell them we 
will not choose them and why not).