"linnix" <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd@s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com...> Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined > in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different > processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra > charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this > is just unnecessary hassle.Are you asking for electrical test? They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up needing manual intervention. You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though. Nial
PCB multiple designs surcharge
Started by ●February 7, 2010
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 20:13:01 -0800 (PST), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Feb 7, 6:45�pm, who where <no...@home.net> wrote: >> On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix >> >> <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >> >Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined >> >in a board. �They don't have to do any extra work or different >> >processes than single design. �Why do they insist on this extra >> >charge? �Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this >> >is just unnecessary hassle. >> >> >I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about >> >number of customer designs? �For identical board area and spec, 4 >> >designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. �Are >> >different versions of the same board consider as different designs? >> >> Might help if you identify which ones have given you this problem, and >> to what extent. > >I have encountered this both in US and China, PCBcart included. > >> >> When I am prototyping I have sent multiple designs on a single file to >> one fab which I no longer use, and in production I have sent >> two_on_a_board to PCBcart more than once and it was treated as one >> job, one startup charge. > >Take PCBcart for example: >size of board: 400mmx200mm >10 pcs @ $21 each > >Setup cost based on number of designs: >1 126 >2 138 >3 151 >4 163 >5 189 >6 252 >7 283 >8 315This is likely to be down to things like test setup costs. If PCBs are routed, it probably also increases rout cost. I suspect the above may refer to designs submitted as seperate files - if you have pre-panelised it, then as far as the PCB co is concerned it is one designed - I've submitted multi-design PCB panels to PCBcart with no problems.
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in <2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c@4ax.com>:>On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix ><me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: > >>Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined >>in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different >>processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra >>charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this >>is just unnecessary hassle. >> >>I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about >>number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4 >>designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are >>different versions of the same board consider as different designs? > > >My board house charged for a single board here: > >ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg > >Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout. > >ONE of the circuits actually worked!Only one?
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On Feb 8, 4:00=A0am, "Nial Stewart" <nial*REMOVE_TH...@nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk> wrote:> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message > > news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd@s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com... > > > Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined > > in a board. =A0They don't have to do any extra work or different > > processes than single design. =A0Why do they insist on this extra > > charge? =A0Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this > > is just unnecessary hassle. > > Are you asking for electrical test? > > They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it > could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up > needing manual intervention. > > You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though. > > NialET would be the only 'reasonable' excuse for that kind of pricing.
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
In comp.arch.embedded, 1 Lucky Texan <alckytxn@swbell.net> wrote:> On Feb 8, 4:00�am, "Nial Stewart" ><nial*REMOVE_TH...@nialstewartdevelopments.co.uk> wrote: >> "linnix" <m...@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message >> >> news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd@s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >> >> > Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined >> > in a board. �They don't have to do any extra work or different >> > processes than single design. �Why do they insist on this extra >> > charge? �Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this >> > is just unnecessary hassle. >> >> Are you asking for electrical test? >> >> They must have software that deduces a netlist from the gerbers, it >> could be that multiple boards on a single panel screws this up >> needing manual intervention. >> >> You wouldn't have thought it would cost much to fix though. >> >> Nial > > ET would be the only 'reasonable' excuse for that kind of pricing.Why? All boards are just a collection of separated nets if no components are placed. What is different if one group of disconnected nets is in one area of the board and another group in another area? And if I design a board with galvanic isolation I have just such a layout, only difference is that you may see some silk print for optocouplers and DCDC converter 'connecting' the otherwise completely disconnected groups of nets. Would you accept a charge for 2 designs for this board? -- Stef (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail) If I'm over the hill, why is it I don't recall ever being on top? -- Jerry Muscha
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On Mon, 8 Feb 2010 11:22:38 +1030, "Chris Burrows" <cfbsoftware@hotmail.com> wrote:> >"linnix" <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote in message >news:ba62882b-0f49-46ff-a9d3-af11ca0d2cbd@s25g2000prd.googlegroups.com... >> Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined >> in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different >> processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra >> charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this >> is just unnecessary hassle. >> > >Check out BatchPCB (an offshoot of SparkFun Electronics) - they even combine >multiple designs from different customers: > >"You submit your PCB design, we add your design to the batch of orders. When >the batch is big enough (usually about 1 week), the batch is set off for >manufacture. 10 days later, the individual boards are received by us. We >then split the orders up and mail your order to you." > >http://www.batchpcb.com > >We haven't tried them ourselves but would be interested to hear of anybody's >experience.No complaints. Ordered three small boards, received seven for no extra charge. It was a small, oblong shape that I guess they used to fill out the panel. Took a while to receive. Good quality. I'd use them again. -- Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:33:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:>On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in ><2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c@4ax.com>: > >>On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix >><me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >> >>>Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined >>>in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different >>>processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra >>>charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this >>>is just unnecessary hassle. >>> >>>I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about >>>number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4 >>>designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are >>>different versions of the same board consider as different designs? >> >> >>My board house charged for a single board here: >> >>ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg >> >>Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout. >> >>ONE of the circuits actually worked! > >Only one?Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for fun. Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology, one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz. John
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On a sunny day (Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:26:12 -0800) it happened John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in <ara0n5h8qdsjj08k2shdul1eit5ho6sjuu@4ax.com>:>On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:33:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje ><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: > >>On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin >><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in >><2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c@4ax.com>: >> >>>On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix >>><me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >>> >>>>Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined >>>>in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different >>>>processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra >>>>charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this >>>>is just unnecessary hassle. >>>> >>>>I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about >>>>number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4 >>>>designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are >>>>different versions of the same board consider as different designs? >>> >>> >>>My board house charged for a single board here: >>> >>>ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg >>> >>>Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout. >>> >>>ONE of the circuits actually worked! >> >>Only one? > >Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and >such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which >worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are >a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of >gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line >things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for >fun. > >Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology, >one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found >a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz. > >JohnNice, anything above 1GHz or so will probably remain magick to me :-) I simply do not have the equipment to measure that stuff. Have some parts here to try a diode sampler one day, just ordered hundreds of dollars more mondaine parts... The latest thing with ordering from conrad.nl is, that if you manage to enter all type numbers in the browser without the site flipping or browser crashing, then in the 'shopping card' they also include related things that you did *not* order... makes it hard to check, had the spreadsheet next to it. I think the idea is that you think 'oh I need that too'. Browser crashed just after I closed the secure connection. Why do all those sites have to have all that crap all over the screen?
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 16:21:11 GMT, Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:>On a sunny day (Mon, 08 Feb 2010 07:26:12 -0800) it happened John Larkin ><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in ><ara0n5h8qdsjj08k2shdul1eit5ho6sjuu@4ax.com>: > >>On Mon, 08 Feb 2010 12:33:21 GMT, Jan Panteltje >><pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>>On a sunny day (Sun, 07 Feb 2010 19:53:26 -0800) it happened John Larkin >>><jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in >>><2e2vm5tnncm8ic9a0qm9tpivkub0l9ch7c@4ax.com>: >>> >>>>On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 13:53:58 -0800 (PST), linnix >>>><me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote: >>>> >>>>>Some PCB fab houses charge extra for having multiple designs combined >>>>>in a board. They don't have to do any extra work or different >>>>>processes than single design. Why do they insist on this extra >>>>>charge? Some of them will waive the fee after negotiation, but this >>>>>is just unnecessary hassle. >>>>> >>>>>I know this is very common in the industry, but why do they care about >>>>>number of customer designs? For identical board area and spec, 4 >>>>>designs cost 30% more and 8 designs cost 100% more in setup. Are >>>>>different versions of the same board consider as different designs? >>>> >>>> >>>>My board house charged for a single board here: >>>> >>>>ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Z250A.jpg >>>> >>>>Maybe the trick is to put *lots* of boards on one layout. >>>> >>>>ONE of the circuits actually worked! >>> >>>Only one? >> >>Actually there's one overhead circuit (upper left, voltage regs and >>such) and four candidate "pin driver" output circuits, one of which >>worked and got used in a couple of products. The other little bits are >>a lowpass filter (which we've used a couple of times), a couple of >>gaasfet testers (not used so far) and a couple of transmission line >>things for TDR/TDT testing. There's also one TDR test trace just for >>fun. >> >>Oh, there are two dipswitch-based attenuators of different topology, >>one of which got used in a product for gain cals. We have since found >>a really tiny trimpot that's good to about 1 GHz. >> >>John > >Nice, anything above 1GHz or so will probably remain magick to me :-)To me, too. I haven't the nonlinear device models, the EM software tools, or the brute intelligence to predict how some of this stuff will behave. So a mixture of instinct, experience, and experiment will have to do.>I simply do not have the equipment to measure that stuff.I started with flea-market Tek gear, a 547 scope and a 1S2 TDR/sampler, about $120 total. Nowadays you can get an 11801 mainframe and a 20 GHz TDR/sampling head for around $1500. ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/1S2.jpg The 11801 is a beast, but it works beautifully. This one is displaying a 1 GHz square wave from the successful pin driver circuit on my multiple-circuit board, under the Mantis. The sampling head is on an extender cable so it can snug right up to the DUT. ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/DSC01371.JPG The test source is the SRS CG635 2GHz clock generator, a nice box with the usual SRS quirks. It has a clever but complex way of generating a very low jitter DDS-based clock.>Have some parts here to try a diode sampler one day, >just ordered hundreds of dollars more mondaine parts...I've done a couple of samplers, just for fun. The Tek S2 topology (SRD driving shorted transmission lines, 2-diode feedback sampler) works well and isn't hard to do. ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Sampler1.JPG>The latest thing with ordering from conrad.nl is, >that if you manage to enter all type numbers in the browser without the site flipping or browser crashing, >then in the 'shopping card' they also include related things that you did *not* >order... makes it hard to check, had the spreadsheet next to it. >I think the idea is that you think 'oh I need that too'. >Browser crashed just after I closed the secure connection. >Why do all those sites have to have all that crap all over the screen? >Firefox under XP seems very solid to me. It's not elegant but it works. John
Reply by ●February 8, 20102010-02-08
On Sun, 7 Feb 2010 22:25:16 -0800 (PST), linnix <me@linnix.info-for.us> wrote:>On Feb 7, 9:28�pm, don <don> wrote: >> linnix wrote: >> > On Feb 7, 4:28 pm, Tim Watts <t...@dionic.net> wrote: >> >> linnix <m...@linnix.info-for.us> >> >> � wibbled on Monday 08 February 2010 00:18 >> >> >>> In one case, I paid and submitted files. �They saw different >> >>> functional blocks and wanted to charge more. �I told them to cancel >> >>> the order and they back off. �Another fab's web says that they are >> >>> trying to protect jobs by charging more and forcing designers to >> >>> submit multiple orders. �By killing us (designers), I don't know how >> >>> they can create more jobs for them. >> >> So does that mean if you created one board with a snap line (where the >> >> functional parts *could* (but needn't) be separated, they would charge more? >> >> Sounds very subjective - and a rather prehistoric and misguided charging >> >> approach. Reminds me of the RIAA/MPAA. >> >> > Yes, some say so explicitly, with or without snap line. �Usually, I >> > can negotiate it out, but I am tried of dealing with such nonsense. >> > Am I the only one having these experiences? >> >> > By the way, I never have design issues with combined designs, except >> > for money issues. >> >> No, you are not alone. >> >> 4pcb.com charges an extra $50 to step and repeat !!! > >But I do all the shift, merge, step and repeat. All else being >equal. They charge $126 if I says it's 1 design, $163 if 4 designs >and $315 if 8 designs. They do exactly the same work regardless.Vote with your feet; there are too many board houses around for you to have to put up with that crap. JF
