Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:> On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:11:08 PM UTC-5, Kent Dickey wrote: >> In article <56b82e62-c2f8-4523...@googlegroups.com>, >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:54:13 PM UTC-4, Philip Martel wrote: >>>> On 10/29/2020 23:17, Rick C wrote: >>>>> I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and >>> want to acquire some tools. I've needed a new scope for some time, but >>> want an attached scope using the PC for a display. They are no cheaper >>> than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive. The only ones >>> I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes. Rather >>> pricey. >>>>> >>>>> Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC. One I've >>> seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name. My >>> only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver. I keep >>> wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me >>> back. Ah, found it. LogicPort by Intronix. Not a bad device, but no >>> scope. >> I've had good luck in the past buying used HP 20+ year old test equipment on >> ebay. (It was named HP, then Agilent, now Keysight, which is kinda handy >> when searching, you get to pick the age of the equipment through the name). >> The HP16500C supports sending the display over X windows (so you can control >> it from your desk), and I think it supports NFS mounting so you can get >> at the trace data. It supports 5 plug in cards. The 16534a is the >> 2GSa/s 500MHz scope card which gives you two probes, and is about $500 or so. >> It's excellent. The 16555A cards are logic analyzer cards with 1 million >> states deep at 125MHz (250MHz if you lose half the channels, and 500MHz fixed >> sampling clock which is useful to see which signals are transitioning >> later/earlier than others on a bus). HP Logic Analyzers have very good >> triggering and selective trace capture ability. Try to get the >> 16555A already installed as a group in a chassis since there are special >> connectors to "gang" them together which you'll want. The 16500B chassis >> doesn't have the X windows or NFS support, so it's a lot less useful. >> >> I picked HP 16500C since I'd used it before--so think of something you >> used and liked that was new 20 years ago, and buy a used version of that. >> Everything is 20x-50x cheaper than new, which makes it a great deal. >> >> You're taking some risk on ebay, but it looks like you can get 4x 16555A >> in a 16500C chassis for under $500. I found one for sale near me 10 years ago >> and picked it up in person. (This stuff is heavy--I'd be wary of shipping >> damage). Quality used equipment from 20-25 years ago is better than cheap >> crap today. >> >> To be safe, I bought two of everything I wanted--one system was perfect, the >> other had some minor annoyances. >> >> It looks like the PicoScope 6000 new is 5GSa/s at 500MHz with 2 channels >> for $6916. The 25 year old HP equipment is almost as good (half the >> sampling rate) for 1/10th the price. >> >> Kent > > Thanks for the suggestions. I used one of those HP logic analyzers > complete with a floppy disk drive, MANY years ago. You picked the top > end PicoScope to compare to. The problem is the HP16500 would barely fit > in my car without breaking an axle while the PicoScope will fit in my computer bag! > > In the winter I might have to turn off the HP during my electricity peak > billing time and in the summer I'd have to chill the house in the AM to > keep the temperatures down in the afternoon. lol, just kidding of > course, but they do use a lot of power which gets turned into heat. At > this moment, the laptop is the highest power drain that's running. I'd > like to keep it that way. Heck, I'm considering replacing my fridge > because the web says buying a new one will save enough electricity to pay > for itself in five years or less. It's 30 years old too. >The new fridge will fail in 5 years, planned obsolescence. And the cost to run for your old fridge is a lie to get you to buy a new one.
Good Hardware Tools
Started by ●October 30, 2020
Reply by ●November 16, 20202020-11-16
Reply by ●November 16, 20202020-11-16
Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> writes:> I'm considering replacing my fridge because the web says buying a new > one will save enough electricity to pay for itself in five years or > less. It's 30 years old too.New fridges are more efficient because they use smaller motors that spin at higher rpm, apparently. Why that makes them more efficient, I have no idea, but that's what the fridge installer guy told me. Anyway, the higher rpm makes them noisier. I do think the energy savings can be pretty substantial. I have a smallish but full height household fridge and it uses 150W when the motor is running, which is about 1/3 of the time, so 50W average. My mom's fridge is bigger but nowhere near twice as big, and I'm told (haven't measured because my kill-a-watt broke) that it uses 300+ watts when running.
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 2:31:34 PM UTC-5, Brett wrote:> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On Friday, November 13, 2020 at 6:11:08 PM UTC-5, Kent Dickey wrote: > >> In article <56b82e62-c2f8-4523...@googlegroups.com>, > >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:54:13 PM UTC-4, Philip Martel wrote: > >>>> On 10/29/2020 23:17, Rick C wrote: > >>>>> I will be working from home to help an open ventilator project and > >>> want to acquire some tools. I've needed a new scope for some time, but > >>> want an attached scope using the PC for a display. They are no cheaper > >>> than the full scopes and good ones may be more expensive. The only ones > >>> I've found that are decent are the Pico Technology scopes. Rather > >>> pricey. > >>>>> > >>>>> Then there are small logic analyzers, again on the PC. One I've > >>> seen used is good and not too pricey, but I don't recall the name. My > >>> only issue with it is that it doesn't have a Linux driver. I keep > >>> wanting to switch to Linux, but this is the sort of thing that holds me > >>> back. Ah, found it. LogicPort by Intronix. Not a bad device, but no > >>> scope. > >> I've had good luck in the past buying used HP 20+ year old test equipment on > >> ebay. (It was named HP, then Agilent, now Keysight, which is kinda handy > >> when searching, you get to pick the age of the equipment through the name). > >> The HP16500C supports sending the display over X windows (so you can control > >> it from your desk), and I think it supports NFS mounting so you can get > >> at the trace data. It supports 5 plug in cards. The 16534a is the > >> 2GSa/s 500MHz scope card which gives you two probes, and is about $500 or so. > >> It's excellent. The 16555A cards are logic analyzer cards with 1 million > >> states deep at 125MHz (250MHz if you lose half the channels, and 500MHz fixed > >> sampling clock which is useful to see which signals are transitioning > >> later/earlier than others on a bus). HP Logic Analyzers have very good > >> triggering and selective trace capture ability. Try to get the > >> 16555A already installed as a group in a chassis since there are special > >> connectors to "gang" them together which you'll want. The 16500B chassis > >> doesn't have the X windows or NFS support, so it's a lot less useful. > >> > >> I picked HP 16500C since I'd used it before--so think of something you > >> used and liked that was new 20 years ago, and buy a used version of that. > >> Everything is 20x-50x cheaper than new, which makes it a great deal. > >> > >> You're taking some risk on ebay, but it looks like you can get 4x 16555A > >> in a 16500C chassis for under $500. I found one for sale near me 10 years ago > >> and picked it up in person. (This stuff is heavy--I'd be wary of shipping > >> damage). Quality used equipment from 20-25 years ago is better than cheap > >> crap today. > >> > >> To be safe, I bought two of everything I wanted--one system was perfect, the > >> other had some minor annoyances. > >> > >> It looks like the PicoScope 6000 new is 5GSa/s at 500MHz with 2 channels > >> for $6916. The 25 year old HP equipment is almost as good (half the > >> sampling rate) for 1/10th the price. > >> > >> Kent > > > > Thanks for the suggestions. I used one of those HP logic analyzers > > complete with a floppy disk drive, MANY years ago. You picked the top > > end PicoScope to compare to. The problem is the HP16500 would barely fit > > in my car without breaking an axle while the PicoScope will fit in my computer bag! > > > > In the winter I might have to turn off the HP during my electricity peak > > billing time and in the summer I'd have to chill the house in the AM to > > keep the temperatures down in the afternoon. lol, just kidding of > > course, but they do use a lot of power which gets turned into heat. At > > this moment, the laptop is the highest power drain that's running. I'd > > like to keep it that way. Heck, I'm considering replacing my fridge > > because the web says buying a new one will save enough electricity to pay > > for itself in five years or less. It's 30 years old too. > > > The new fridge will fail in 5 years, planned obsolescence. > And the cost to run for your old fridge is a lie to get you to buy a new > one.This fridge actually did exactly that, died just after the warranty ran out. The installed a new compressor at cost... the price of a new refrigerator. lol. The repaired unit has lasted 30 years so I can't complain too much. Most likely a replacement would simply result in the old unit going in the basement as a back up unit. If it stays plugged in it will mean the electricity cost will simply go UP rather than down by getting a new unit. lol Durn this GG UI... Every time I scroll down a bit to read something, as soon as I start typing it scrolls up to put my typing at the very top of the screen. What is wrong with Google that they would spend time to rewrite the GG UI, making it worse in the process when no one was complaining about how it works? I've noticed any number of changes that simply make the UI less usable with no redeeming quality. -- Rick C. +- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging +- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
On 2020-11-17 Rick C wrote in comp.arch.embedded:> Durn this GG UI... Every time I scroll down a bit to read something, as soon as I start typing it scrolls up to put my typing at the very top of the screen. What is wrong with Google that they would spend time to rewrite the GG UI, making it worse in the process when no one was complaining about how it works? I've noticed any number of changes that simply make the UI less usable with no redeeming quality. >I see you complain a lot about GG so why not switch to a decent newsreader? (That would get rid of the afwul GG line lengths as well ;-) ) If it is because you would then need news server access, there are free options. There are also paid services that are really cheap if you only use text newsgroups. The one I am using costs me Euro 1,70 a year because that is the minimum year fee they have. If it were only for the amount data, I could probably do with one tenth of that. -- Stef (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail) As long as we're going to reinvent the wheel again, we might as well try making it round this time. - Mike Dennison
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:50:45 -0800 (PST), Rick C <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:>On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 2:31:34 PM UTC-5, Brett wrote: >> Rick C <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > In the winter I might have to turn off the HP during my electricity peak >> > billing time and in the summer I'd have to chill the house in the AM to >> > keep the temperatures down in the afternoon. lol, just kidding of >> > course, but they do use a lot of power which gets turned into heat. At >> > this moment, the laptop is the highest power drain that's running. I'd >> > like to keep it that way. Heck, I'm considering replacing my fridge >> > because the web says buying a new one will save enough electricity to pay >> > for itself in five years or less. It's 30 years old too. >> > >> The new fridge will fail in 5 years, planned obsolescence. >> And the cost to run for your old fridge is a lie to get you to buy a new >> one. > >This fridge actually did exactly that, died just after the warranty >ran out. The installed a new compressor at cost... the price of a >new refrigerator. lol. The repaired unit has lasted 30 years so I >can't complain too much.That's the scam: energy efficient appliances often have critical components that are under specified for the load ... that's *how* they save electricity. The original components are overworked and fail quickly [sometimes even under warranty]. After-market replacements almost always are better ... but since the replacement is correctly sized for the load, once "fixed" the appliance no longer qualifies for its "energy efficient" rating. George
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> writes:> That's the scam: energy efficient appliances often have critical > components that are under specified for the load ...That's an interesting point. However, regarding fridges and particularly freezers, there's another avenue to energy efficiency: apparently the chest type units are way more efficient than the type with a front door, even if the door stays closed most of the time. They do a better job of keeping heat out, so the motor doesn't have to run nearly as much. I don't know whether more insulation could do the same thing for a front loading design. I tried freezing a ~4 liter pot of water in my supposedly high efficiency fridge and then unplugging it. The resulting block of ice completely melted in just a day or two. That was disappointing.
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
On Tue, 17 Nov 2020 10:06:14 -0800, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:>George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> writes: >> That's the scam: energy efficient appliances often have critical >> components that are under specified for the load ... > >That's an interesting point. However, regarding fridges and >particularly freezers, there's another avenue to energy efficiency: >apparently the chest type units are way more efficient than the type >with a front door, even if the door stays closed most of the time. They >do a better job of keeping heat out, so the motor doesn't have to run >nearly as much. I don't know whether more insulation could do the same >thing for a front loading design.You are correct about chest freezers in general being more efficient. More insulation certainly helps, as does being air-tight. For many years I have liked Sub-Zero[*] refrigerators and freezers. Sub-Zero freezers vacuum seal when they are closed: on the bigger units the door quite strongly resists being opened, and it pulls strongly for several seconds when closed [you can't just open the door again if you forgot something, you have to wait until the seal is stable]. And they maintain -5..+5 degrees Fahrenheit - not exactly "sub zero" as the name implies, but way below freezing. The refrigerators don't vacuum seal, but they are heavily insulated and easily keep stuff near freezing. [*] https://www.subzero-wolf.com/sub-zero https://www.subzero-wolf.com/sub-zero/full-size-refrigeration>I tried freezing a ~4 liter pot of water in my supposedly high >efficiency fridge and then unplugging it. The resulting block of ice >completely melted in just a day or two. That was disappointing.If I freeze water overnight in my 14oz travel mug, it will take over 3 hours in the (comfortable) ~70-F car before I can even take a sip. My sister is about an ~8 hour drive: if I keep the mug out of the sun, it will still be partly frozen when I get there. YMMV, George
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
On 17/11/2020 19:06, Paul Rubin wrote:> George Neuner <gneuner2@comcast.net> writes: >> That's the scam: energy efficient appliances often have critical >> components that are under specified for the load ... > > That's an interesting point. However, regarding fridges and > particularly freezers, there's another avenue to energy efficiency: > apparently the chest type units are way more efficient than the type > with a front door, even if the door stays closed most of the time. They > do a better job of keeping heat out, so the motor doesn't have to run > nearly as much. I don't know whether more insulation could do the same > thing for a front loading design. >I believe it's basically a case of hot air rising, cold air falling - it means the cold air stays in better. And this is particularly true when the door is opened - with a standard fridge, cold air starts falling out rather quickly. I read somewhere that a Japanese manufacturer had invented a fridge (with standard door and size) used about a quarter of the energy on average, measured in real use in a home over a period of time. The breakthrough was to have a transparent door, so that people don't open the fridge to see what is inside. I thought that was a fine example of thinking outside the box!
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
On 11/17/2020 4:25 PM, David Brown wrote:> I thought that was a fine example of thinking outside the box!Nah, inside the box was just too cold.
Reply by ●November 17, 20202020-11-17
David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> writes:> I believe it's basically a case of hot air rising, cold air falling - it > means the cold air stays in better. And this is particularly true when > the door is opened - with a standard fridge, cold air starts falling out > rather quickly.The interior volume of the freezer part of a standard fridge might be around 50L, which would make the air mass inside around 60 grams. So even if all the cold air escapes instantly, that's fairly little heat getting in, compared to the heat capacity of the other stuff in the freezer, i.e. around 4 kg of ice in the case of my experiment with the pot full of water. The fridge part might be more like 200L so I'd agree that the heat entering from opening the door several times a day could be substantial. It still seems to me that better insulation around the freezer would help. When I did the thing with the pot of water, I checked on it maybe 1x-2x day, not so much in the scheme of things. The heat was getting in through the insulation, not from opening the door.
