8051 C Compiler

Alf Katz wrote:
>
>> How can someone reply to a properly bottom posted article with
>> top-posting?  It seems to me that this takes amazing gall and
>> rudeness.
> 
> your SNR has gotten beyond a joke.  I really did appreciate your
> occasional pearls of wisdom as you do have a great wealth of
> knowledge and capacity to contribute, but every time I read this
> repetitive whining it upsets me too much, so I'm afraid I really
> have to block your posts, soon.
> 
> Lighten up, mate.  The days of neck-to-knee bathing suits and
> penny-farthing bicycles are gone. Your fundamentalist intolerance
> of those to whom the literal interpretation of the commandments
> of usenet netiquette is no longer particularly relevant should
> join them.  Please give up your jihad.

Obviously you are aware of the proper netiquette.  Why do you then
insist on making your posts relatively incomprehensible by
top-posting and failing to snip?  At any rate, my complaints are
primarily directed to those who are totally unaware, and have been
misguided by such horrors as Outhouse Excess and Google Groups. 
Without correction these people will never learn the correct way,
and newsgroups will descend into total chaos.

I also try to be polite about it all.

Some informative links:
   news:news.announce.newusers
   http://www.geocities.com/nnqweb/
   http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
   http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
   http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

-- 
Chuck F (cbfalconer@yahoo.com) (cbfalconer@maineline.net)
   Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.
   <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net> USE maineline address!

"Elan Magavi" <Elan@nomailnospam.com> schreef in bericht 
news:SO%Gg.12399$kO3.9370@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com...
> Falconer.. ease up on the etiquette.. you do it in every friggin post. 
> (top posted for your convenience)

Plonk! (for top posting).

-- 
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email) 

"Alf Katz" <alfkatz@iremove.the.bloody.obvious.ieee.org> schreef in bericht 
news:44ed90f0$0$5109$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Sorry Chuck,
>    your SNR has gotten beyond a joke.  I really did appreciate your 
> occasional pearls of wisdom as you do have a great wealth of knowledge and 
> capacity to contribute, but every time I read this repetitive whining it 
> upsets me too much, so I'm afraid I really have to block your posts, soon.
>
>    Lighten up, mate.  The days of neck-to-knee bathing suits and 
> penny-farthing bicycles are gone. Your fundamentalist intolerance of those 
> to whom the literal interpretation of the commandments of usenet 
> netiquette is no longer particularly relevant should join them.  Please 
> give up your jihad.
>
> Cheers,
> Alf

Plonk! (for top posting)


-- 
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and '.invalid' when replying by email) 

Alf Katz wrote:

> Keil and IAR compilers are good, there's no doubt and their IDE's, debuggers
> snd associated applications are excellent.  They are priced appropriately
> for what you get, and I don't mind that.  However I won't buy them again
> because of their heavy handed license enforcement.  If they're not going to
> trust me to meet their license terms, I'm afraid I can't trust that they'll
> be co-operative if I need to move my license from one PC to another.  And
> the next time a company disappears when I'm using their product won't be the
> first, either.  I sympathise with their desire to protect their intellectual
> property, but it's cost them a number of purchases (8051 and ARM in the last
> year alone) from me.

I looked on their websites but I can't find the license information.
Can you provide a pointer or a description of what you consider to be
the problems?

Keil has been purchased by ARM,  but there is a strong following in their 
80c51 based tools and no plans (as advise by the local Australian 
distributor in the last few months) to "spin off" the 80c51 tools.
The Keil simulated features for the  ADuC831 can be found here 
http://www.keil.com/dd/chip/3316.htm.  There may still be some concern about 
the purchase of Keil by ARM... perhaps you can contact your local Keil 
supplier to find out more.

I confirm IAR is another well know  - respected C compiler vendor.

To companion the C compiler / Simulator  you should partner with a Emulator 
that supports the chosen compiler.
(disclaimer ... I haven't personally used these - use at own risk)

http://www.metaice.com/Co_info/Press_Releases/ADuC831_PR.htm

http://www.accutron.com/products/proddetail.php?prod=accutronspear&cat=39

There are a few others.

There are many 80c51 compliers and emulators... you should make sure the 
ADuC831 additional perphieral hardware (h/w over and above std 80c51) is 
fully simulated or emulated.


If you plan to use 80c51 cores in the future - then,  a tool chain that 
covers a wide range of 80c51 manufacturers may be handy (echonomical) in the 
long run..



Regards
Joe.G

In article <44ed98b5$0$5108$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, Alf Katz
<alfkatz@iremove.the.bloody.obvious.ieee.org> writes
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Chris Hills" <chris@phaedsys.org>
>Newsgroups: comp.arch.embedded
>Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 1:31 AM
>Subject: Re: 8051 C Compiler
>
>
>>>
>>>I'm looking for a compiler that generates best code in terms of speed
>>>optimisation.
>>>This compiler must have debugging tools too, for Analog Device ADUC
>>>microcontrollers.
>>
>> www.Keil.com
>> www.IAR.com
>>
>>
>Keil and IAR compilers are good, there's no doubt and their IDE's, debuggers 
>snd associated applications are excellent.  They are priced appropriately 
>for what you get, and I don't mind that. 


So far so god....

> However I won't buy them again 
>because of their heavy handed license enforcement.

It's not heavy handed compared to most commercial tools.  In the case of
IAR you have a choice of dongle, node lock or floating.

Keil were dongle and are now node locked

>  If they're not going to 
>trust me to meet their license terms,

You only have to look at the number of hacked copies about to see why
they are paranoid. We used to get people on this NG  both looking for
and supplying Keil compilers

Whilst many are completely trustworthy many thousands are not. In some
parts of the world 90% piracy is common. Even in large companies. 

> I'm afraid I can't trust that they'll 
>be co-operative if I need to move my license from one PC to another.

I have not had a problem. As a tool distributor I have helped quite a
few customers who have had hard disks and computers fatally go down that
had node locked sw on them. Also sorting out broken dongles and the
like. 

Most not all, are very co-operative. Most solve the problem quickly.
Certainly Keil, IAR, have done.  Whilst we are on the subject most can
also supply old versions of their compilers too.

>  And 
>the next time a company disappears when I'm using their product won't be the 
>first, either. 

This is a real problem.  Some systems, ie dongles are portable and so
far I have yet to see a dangle fail. However nod locked systems could be
more of a problem. 

> I sympathise with their desire to protect their intellectual 
>property, but it's cost them a number of purchases (8051 and ARM in the last 
>year alone) from me.

They would prefer to loose those few rather than loose many many more if
their systems were not locked.   

>For the 8051, for larger projects HiTech C (www.hitech.com.au) have been 
>around for over 20 years and have a suite of C compilers.  While not dirt 
>cheap, they're about 1/4 of the price of IAR or Keil and reasonably ANSI 
>compliant.

Lower priced, smaller section of the market and less of a problem with
hackers. I expect that if Hi-tech start to see a dip in profits due to
illicit use they too would put protection on. 

If the world was perfect and could be trusted then there would be no
need for copy protection. 

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:49:04 +0200, the renowned "seba" <seba@nospam>
> wrote:
>
> >Which is the best C compiler for 8051 (Analog Devices Aduc831/841 in
> >particular)?
>
> Keil.
>
Sorry but I think Raisonance products (on http://www.raisonance.com)
are *far* better in terms of produced code. And also they have a very
good development environment that makes development very productive.

That was for my $.02 only.
Bruno

Chris Hills wrote:
> 
> 
>>I'm afraid I can't trust that they'll 
>>be co-operative if I need to move my license from one PC to another.
> 
> 
> I have not had a problem. As a tool distributor I have helped quite a
> few customers who have had hard disks and computers fatally go down that
> had node locked sw on them. Also sorting out broken dongles and the
> like. 
> 

IAR did not want to help us with an older version of their IDE.

With the "new and improved" version, our builds broke. ( don't remember 
why any more)

We went round and round to find the problem. After a year or so, it was 
decided to stay with the older version.

We still support our older products, IAR does not.

A new engineer (me) started and we needed to transfer our only working 
compiler to a new machine.

With the years "YEARs" of communication about our plight, we had to 
start all over again, "AGAIN".

"Why are you still using this old compiler" was the only response we 
would get from the kids in tech support.


Checking some old emails, we contacted the only engineer at IAR who 
remembered our problem, he moved up to some management position ( good 
for him).

A few emails later, we had our solution and got the license transfer.

Four weeks of fooling around to get what was able to be done the whole 
time. The new tech support kids, could not figure it out.

I will use IAR and other locked software in the future.

But this fiasco showed me the dark side of locked/licensed software.

donald

Chris Hills wrote:
> Certainly Keil, IAR, have done.  Whilst we are on the subject most can
> also supply old versions of their compilers too.

I tried that once.  It didn't work.  To be fair after complaining in
this forum a representative claimed it should have been possible and
offered to look into it, but by then I'd already gone through the pain
of the workaround.

> This is a real problem.  Some systems, ie dongles are portable and so
> far I have yet to see a dangle fail. 

I have.

Robert

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 09:52:43 -0400, CBFalconer <cbfalconer@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Alf Katz wrote:
>>
>>> How can someone reply to a properly bottom posted article with
>>> top-posting?  It seems to me that this takes amazing gall and
>>> rudeness.
>> 
>> your SNR has gotten beyond a joke.  I really did appreciate your
>> occasional pearls of wisdom as you do have a great wealth of
>> knowledge and capacity to contribute, but every time I read this
>> repetitive whining it upsets me too much, so I'm afraid I really
>> have to block your posts, soon.
>> 
>> Lighten up, mate.  The days of neck-to-knee bathing suits and
>> penny-farthing bicycles are gone. Your fundamentalist intolerance
>> of those to whom the literal interpretation of the commandments
>> of usenet netiquette is no longer particularly relevant should
>> join them.  Please give up your jihad.
>
>Obviously you are aware of the proper netiquette.  Why do you then
>insist on making your posts relatively incomprehensible by
>top-posting and failing to snip?  At any rate, my complaints are
>primarily directed to those who are totally unaware, and have been
>misguided by such horrors as Outhouse Excess and Google Groups. 
>Without correction these people will never learn the correct way,
>and newsgroups will descend into total chaos.

I pretty much don't bother reading top posts, because of the effort I
usually have to go through in order to glean precise meaning.   But
there are a couple of exceptions: (1) If the subject itself is more
than mildly interesting to me and the poster has otherwise a
demonstrated skill I find worth listening to, and (2) if they are
short and it also doesn't require any other reading to understand and
follow.  I suppose if the subjects weren't so technical...  but they
are, so top posting is often a problem.

>I also try to be polite about it all.
>
>Some informative links:
>   news:news.announce.newusers
>   http://www.geocities.com/nnqweb/
>   http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>   http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html
>   http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

Hehe.

Jon