John Kent wrote:
Well I still live in 5 volt logic land!
So are the drives I buy ( for now or have kicking around ).
I suspect for real PDP-11 style I/O the IDE interface would
use DMA so that would be external to the FPGA.
> I also have an XESS XSA-3S1000 and XST3.0 which I
bought for another PDP
> project. The XST 3.0 board has an IDE disk interface, but to the best of
> my knowledge does not use series limit resisters. When I queried Dave
> Vanden Bout from Xess about this, he said, and I quote:
I think they make CPLD's that have 5 volt I/O & 3.3 I/O. If so that
would be the cat's meyow.
> I'm not sure what constitutes a "modern" disk
drive, but it might be
> worth testing the signals with a multimeter first. I was asking about
> connecting Compact Flash which is why the CF reference. You must run CF
> off a 3.3V rail, even though the CF to IDE adapters I bought have a
> standard 3.5" floppy power connector on them.
Why not just go USB ... everything else is that now?
POP-11 (PDP-11/40 in an FPGA)
Started by ●August 16, 2007
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
rtstofer wrote:
> FWIW, the POP-11 code doesn't appear to handle a front panel. For a
> first cut, that is probably ok but I really want the blinking lights
> and switches. I might settle for 7 segment displays (in octal, of
> course).
>
> Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
> they reasonably priced?
>
> Richard
Ack! Cough Cough Cough. You can get Surplus paddle switches cheap
but not matching momentary contact ones.
http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
> FWIW, the POP-11 code doesn't appear to handle a front panel. For a
> first cut, that is probably ok but I really want the blinking lights
> and switches. I might settle for 7 segment displays (in octal, of
> course).
>
> Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
> they reasonably priced?
>
> Richard
Ack! Cough Cough Cough. You can get Surplus paddle switches cheap
but not matching momentary contact ones.
http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 16:35 +0000, rtstofer wrote:
> Or, grab a spare Spartan 3 Starter Board and visit
> http://www.sump.org/projects/analyzer/ I had a 200k gate version that
> was undersized for my project but more than adequate for the logic
> analyzer.
Thanks for the link. My analyzer works very similar, has
more channels (128) but is less deep (512 samples), and has
only a simple trigger. And I never had the time to write
viewing software other than a hexadecimal listing... ;-)
> I REALLY like your idea!
If anyone is interested, I will make the code available.
Hellwig
> Or, grab a spare Spartan 3 Starter Board and visit
> http://www.sump.org/projects/analyzer/ I had a 200k gate version that
> was undersized for my project but more than adequate for the logic
> analyzer.
Thanks for the link. My analyzer works very similar, has
more channels (128) but is less deep (512 samples), and has
only a simple trigger. And I never had the time to write
viewing software other than a hexadecimal listing... ;-)
> I REALLY like your idea!
If anyone is interested, I will make the code available.
Hellwig
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
--- In f..., woodelf wrote:
>
> rtstofer wrote:
> >
> >
> > FWIW, the POP-11 code doesn't appear to handle a front panel. For a
> > first cut, that is probably ok but I really want the blinking lights
> > and switches. I might settle for 7 segment displays (in octal, of
> > course).
> >
> > Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
> > they reasonably priced?
> >
> > Richard
>
> Ack! Cough Cough Cough. You can get Surplus paddle switches cheap
> but not matching momentary contact ones.
> http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
>
So, they're not reasonably priced. First there is the issue that
POP11 doesn't include front panel logic. Second, if I get the basic
processor to function I can build a first approximation using regular
toggle switches. Finally, if I REALLY like the machine and decide to
package it, I can part with a little money.
But there's a lot to do between now and then.
Richard
>
> rtstofer wrote:
> >
> >
> > FWIW, the POP-11 code doesn't appear to handle a front panel. For a
> > first cut, that is probably ok but I really want the blinking lights
> > and switches. I might settle for 7 segment displays (in octal, of
> > course).
> >
> > Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
> > they reasonably priced?
> >
> > Richard
>
> Ack! Cough Cough Cough. You can get Surplus paddle switches cheap
> but not matching momentary contact ones.
> http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
>
So, they're not reasonably priced. First there is the issue that
POP11 doesn't include front panel logic. Second, if I get the basic
processor to function I can build a first approximation using regular
toggle switches. Finally, if I REALLY like the machine and decide to
package it, I can part with a little money.
But there's a lot to do between now and then.
Richard
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
Richard wrote:
> Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
> they reasonably priced?
DEC made their own paddles, and I haven't seen anything close available
as a standard product.
The ones that were used on the IMSAI microcomputer are still available.
They cost about $10.50-12.00 each here, or $185 for the complete set of
22 used in the IMSAI:
http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
If you're buying a bunch of them, you can probably get a better deal
through a C&K (ITT Cannon) distributor. I haven't purchased any myself,
but as of 1997, Tim Shoppa reported that they were still available as part
number 7101-J4-Z-Q-E for on-on, and 7105-J4-Z-Q-E for momentary-off-
momentary. They were available in various colors, though only black,
red, and white were standard.
The latest data sheet doesn't show the J4 actuator, but there are some
others that might be suitable:
http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/Leaf/SW_rocker_7000.pdf
Eric
> Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
> they reasonably priced?
DEC made their own paddles, and I haven't seen anything close available
as a standard product.
The ones that were used on the IMSAI microcomputer are still available.
They cost about $10.50-12.00 each here, or $185 for the complete set of
22 used in the IMSAI:
http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
If you're buying a bunch of them, you can probably get a better deal
through a C&K (ITT Cannon) distributor. I haven't purchased any myself,
but as of 1997, Tim Shoppa reported that they were still available as part
number 7101-J4-Z-Q-E for on-on, and 7105-J4-Z-Q-E for momentary-off-
momentary. They were available in various colors, though only black,
red, and white were standard.
The latest data sheet doesn't show the J4 actuator, but there are some
others that might be suitable:
http://www.ittcannon.com/media/pdf/catalogs/Leaf/SW_rocker_7000.pdf
Eric
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
--- In f..., Hellwig Geisse
wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 16:35 +0000, rtstofer wrote:
>
> > Or, grab a spare Spartan 3 Starter Board and visit
> > http://www.sump.org/projects/analyzer/ I had a 200k gate version that
> > was undersized for my project but more than adequate for the logic
> > analyzer.
>
> Thanks for the link. My analyzer works very similar, has
> more channels (128) but is less deep (512 samples), and has
> only a simple trigger. And I never had the time to write
> viewing software other than a hexadecimal listing... ;-)
>
> > I REALLY like your idea!
>
> If anyone is interested, I will make the code available.
>
> Hellwig
>
Absolutely! I am getting jazzed about building this retro project.
I think your idea of limited samples is correct. I have no idea what
to do with 32k samples. If the problem takes that long to identify
itself I'll never solve it. Or, I'm looking in the wrong place.
There is also the advantage of having the samples sychronized to the
main clock. There is no need to oversample and this makes
interpretation easier.
A simple trigger is fine because there is no practical limit to the
logic that creates it.
I have a rather crude logic analyzer based on a BurchEd Spartan 2E
board for which I wrote a little Visual Basic display. Porting this
will be a lot easier than dealing with the sump.org project although
it is the superior analyzer.
Richard
wrote:
>
> On Thu, 2007-08-23 at 16:35 +0000, rtstofer wrote:
>
> > Or, grab a spare Spartan 3 Starter Board and visit
> > http://www.sump.org/projects/analyzer/ I had a 200k gate version that
> > was undersized for my project but more than adequate for the logic
> > analyzer.
>
> Thanks for the link. My analyzer works very similar, has
> more channels (128) but is less deep (512 samples), and has
> only a simple trigger. And I never had the time to write
> viewing software other than a hexadecimal listing... ;-)
>
> > I REALLY like your idea!
>
> If anyone is interested, I will make the code available.
>
> Hellwig
>
Absolutely! I am getting jazzed about building this retro project.
I think your idea of limited samples is correct. I have no idea what
to do with 32k samples. If the problem takes that long to identify
itself I'll never solve it. Or, I'm looking in the wrong place.
There is also the advantage of having the samples sychronized to the
main clock. There is no need to oversample and this makes
interpretation easier.
A simple trigger is fine because there is no practical limit to the
logic that creates it.
I have a rather crude logic analyzer based on a BurchEd Spartan 2E
board for which I wrote a little Visual Basic display. Porting this
will be a lot easier than dealing with the sump.org project although
it is the superior analyzer.
Richard
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 11:02:45 -0600, you wrote:
>rtstofer wrote:
>> FWIW, the POP-11 code doesn't appear to handle a front panel. For a
>> first cut, that is probably ok but I really want the blinking lights
>> and switches. I might settle for 7 segment displays (in octal, of
>> course).
>>
>> Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
>> they reasonably priced?
>>
>> Richard
>
>Ack! Cough Cough Cough. You can get Surplus paddle switches cheap
>but not matching momentary contact ones.
>http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
Thanks for the link! It turns out that I bought a whole bunch of the
IMSAI switches back around 1979 or so (I loved them a LOT more than my
silly metal-handled Altair 8800 switches on the unit I'd built.) Still
have them. They are worth over US$11 now??!! Wow!! I am rich!
Probably have several thousand dollars worth of them, today.
Jon
>rtstofer wrote:
>> FWIW, the POP-11 code doesn't appear to handle a front panel. For a
>> first cut, that is probably ok but I really want the blinking lights
>> and switches. I might settle for 7 segment displays (in octal, of
>> course).
>>
>> Anyone have a source for paddle handle toggle switches? Ok, now are
>> they reasonably priced?
>>
>> Richard
>
>Ack! Cough Cough Cough. You can get Surplus paddle switches cheap
>but not matching momentary contact ones.
>http://www.imsai.net/parts/parts.htm
Thanks for the link! It turns out that I bought a whole bunch of the
IMSAI switches back around 1979 or so (I loved them a LOT more than my
silly metal-handled Altair 8800 switches on the unit I'd built.) Still
have them. They are worth over US$11 now??!! Wow!! I am rich!
Probably have several thousand dollars worth of them, today.
Jon
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> Thanks for the link! It turns out that I bought a whole bunch of the
> IMSAI switches back around 1979 or so (I loved them a LOT more than my
> silly metal-handled Altair 8800 switches on the unit I'd built.) Still
> have them. They are worth over US$11 now??!! Wow!! I am rich!
> Probably have several thousand dollars worth of them, today.
Got any to sell cheap?
> Jon
> Thanks for the link! It turns out that I bought a whole bunch of the
> IMSAI switches back around 1979 or so (I loved them a LOT more than my
> silly metal-handled Altair 8800 switches on the unit I'd built.) Still
> have them. They are worth over US$11 now??!! Wow!! I am rich!
> Probably have several thousand dollars worth of them, today.
Got any to sell cheap?
> Jon
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 14:05:11 -0600, you wrote:
>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the link! It turns out that I bought a whole bunch of the
>> IMSAI switches back around 1979 or so (I loved them a LOT more than my
>> silly metal-handled Altair 8800 switches on the unit I'd built.) Still
>> have them. They are worth over US$11 now??!! Wow!! I am rich!
>> Probably have several thousand dollars worth of them, today.
>
>Got any to sell cheap?
>> Jon
Hehe. I'll first have to go into my 1200 sw ft, 35' ceiling shed and
look through decades of interesting accumulations for the brown paper
sacks in which I kept them. Think about the end of the movie,
"Raiders of the Lost Ark," here. ;) I suppose it would be worth some
trouble for a good cause, though.
Probably my favorite front panel style was the type used on the front
panel of the HP2116 processor. Soft, 2cm square from memory,
incandescent lighted translucent (avoided the need for separate lights
to indicate bit values), toggle on, toggle off, push buttons.
I also enjoyed the PDP-11 front panel switches and got fairly quick at
them. I think I still liked the HP ones better, but these were fine.
Of course, I also used the Altair 8800 (hardens your finger tips like
playing a guitar may, because of the metal bats) a lot but didn't
enjoy it nearly as much as the IMSAI 8080. Which is why I bought a
bunch of the switches at the time, thinking about replacing my Altair
switches with them and having a bunch left over for whatever came up.
Never did do it, though. So the switches just sat around.
Someone told me, a few years back, that getting a high pressure
plastic molds done in China isn't too expensive (I used to do
apprentice-type work in a shop that made them and got really bored
doing diamond dust polishing!) Should be possible to get a line of
good switches going for not too much investment that way. With those
IMSAI switches supposedly selling at those prices, I have to imagine
that there might be enough commerce to make a go of it making either
exact duplicates (ready replacement market, apparently) or separately
for some even better use on a new front panel design.
Jon
>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the link! It turns out that I bought a whole bunch of the
>> IMSAI switches back around 1979 or so (I loved them a LOT more than my
>> silly metal-handled Altair 8800 switches on the unit I'd built.) Still
>> have them. They are worth over US$11 now??!! Wow!! I am rich!
>> Probably have several thousand dollars worth of them, today.
>
>Got any to sell cheap?
>> Jon
Hehe. I'll first have to go into my 1200 sw ft, 35' ceiling shed and
look through decades of interesting accumulations for the brown paper
sacks in which I kept them. Think about the end of the movie,
"Raiders of the Lost Ark," here. ;) I suppose it would be worth some
trouble for a good cause, though.
Probably my favorite front panel style was the type used on the front
panel of the HP2116 processor. Soft, 2cm square from memory,
incandescent lighted translucent (avoided the need for separate lights
to indicate bit values), toggle on, toggle off, push buttons.
I also enjoyed the PDP-11 front panel switches and got fairly quick at
them. I think I still liked the HP ones better, but these were fine.
Of course, I also used the Altair 8800 (hardens your finger tips like
playing a guitar may, because of the metal bats) a lot but didn't
enjoy it nearly as much as the IMSAI 8080. Which is why I bought a
bunch of the switches at the time, thinking about replacing my Altair
switches with them and having a bunch left over for whatever came up.
Never did do it, though. So the switches just sat around.
Someone told me, a few years back, that getting a high pressure
plastic molds done in China isn't too expensive (I used to do
apprentice-type work in a shop that made them and got really bored
doing diamond dust polishing!) Should be possible to get a line of
good switches going for not too much investment that way. With those
IMSAI switches supposedly selling at those prices, I have to imagine
that there might be enough commerce to make a go of it making either
exact duplicates (ready replacement market, apparently) or separately
for some even better use on a new front panel design.
Jon
Reply by ●August 23, 20072007-08-23
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> Hehe. I'll first have to go into my 1200 sw ft, 35' ceiling shed and
> look through decades of interesting accumulations for the brown paper
> sacks in which I kept them. Think about the end of the movie,
> "Raiders of the Lost Ark," here. ;) I suppose it would be worth some
> trouble for a good cause, though.
So what else do you have for sale?
> Someone told me, a few years back, that getting a high pressure
> plastic molds done in China isn't too expensive (I used to do
> apprentice-type work in a shop that made them and got really bored
> doing diamond dust polishing!) Should be possible to get a line of
> good switches going for not too much investment that way. With those
> IMSAI switches supposedly selling at those prices, I have to imagine
> that there might be enough commerce to make a go of it making either
> exact duplicates (ready replacement market, apparently) or separately
> for some even better use on a new front panel design.
Since DEC stopped making switches there is a small amount of people
looking to have replacement handles at least for front panels.
Any idea of prices for a lot of say 250 switch handles?
> Jon
> Hehe. I'll first have to go into my 1200 sw ft, 35' ceiling shed and
> look through decades of interesting accumulations for the brown paper
> sacks in which I kept them. Think about the end of the movie,
> "Raiders of the Lost Ark," here. ;) I suppose it would be worth some
> trouble for a good cause, though.
So what else do you have for sale?
> Someone told me, a few years back, that getting a high pressure
> plastic molds done in China isn't too expensive (I used to do
> apprentice-type work in a shop that made them and got really bored
> doing diamond dust polishing!) Should be possible to get a line of
> good switches going for not too much investment that way. With those
> IMSAI switches supposedly selling at those prices, I have to imagine
> that there might be enough commerce to make a go of it making either
> exact duplicates (ready replacement market, apparently) or separately
> for some even better use on a new front panel design.
Since DEC stopped making switches there is a small amount of people
looking to have replacement handles at least for front panels.
Any idea of prices for a lot of say 250 switch handles?
> Jon
