Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)

In article <1137251829.238464.283450@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
larwe <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> writes
>
>Ulf Samuelsson wrote:
>
>> You should be able to order samples of the ATmega2561 though...
>
>Yeah, right. I never heard of anyone in anything less than a Fortune 50
>company getting samples out of Atmel. You can order until your fingers
>are worn to the bone, but you won't get so much as an email.
>
>You're correct that _I_ could go to my day job and call the Atmel rep
>and say "I've got a personal project that could use a few samples".
>However I don't mix business and pleasure like that - I keep my
>personal fun projects at a very distant arm's length from my employer.
>
>The average small person has more chance of being elected President
>than of getting a single ATtiny11 sample.


I have found that business users have no problem getting samples. As you
say you could call from work and get a sample.

Why would Atmel (or anyone ) supply free chips to home users?  You can
buy them through Maplin etc

Just because you won't use your work address to get a sample (like
everyone else does) don't complain that the rest of the world will not
change the system just for you.

Samples are there to generate business not to save money for hobby
people.

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In article <1137263445.094798.8760@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, larwe
<zwsdotcom@gmail.com> writes
>
>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>
>> Needless to say, I've not specified any Atmel parts and I'm not
>> planning to.
>
>Atmel does treat big people very well, which is presumably how they get
>away with this. The reason I said I know _I_ could get samples, if they
>exist, is because other SBUs in my company use tens of thousands of
>AVRs of various breeds, and Atmel is trying very hard to get a foot in
>the door of my SBU. I want to design them in because they're much
>easier to work with than the COP and NEC 78K series (which is what we
>have in the products right now) and also considerably cheaper
>(dollar-per-feature) at our "family" price. I could promise about half
>a million pieces a year on some of our projects, too - which is enough
>to get any rep out of his chair :)
>

Don't be too hard on Atmel. It is the same for all silicon companies.
They are in business to sell as many chips as possible. Therefore they
will concentrate of the big companies and their distributors onthe
smaller ones. 

It costs as much to send a sample to a big company that will order
thousands as a small company that will only take the samples. The
problem is not so much cost as time (which costs money).

TO send a sample to a company that is not going to buy any more parts
probably costs 100 USD. Wages, shipping and TIME. 

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:37:24 +0000, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

>In article <1137263445.094798.8760@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, larwe
><zwsdotcom@gmail.com> writes
>>
>>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>>
>>> Needless to say, I've not specified any Atmel parts and I'm not
>>> planning to.
>>
>>Atmel does treat big people very well, which is presumably how they get
>>away with this. The reason I said I know _I_ could get samples, if they
>>exist, is because other SBUs in my company use tens of thousands of
>>AVRs of various breeds, and Atmel is trying very hard to get a foot in
>>the door of my SBU. I want to design them in because they're much
>>easier to work with than the COP and NEC 78K series (which is what we
>>have in the products right now) and also considerably cheaper
>>(dollar-per-feature) at our "family" price. I could promise about half
>>a million pieces a year on some of our projects, too - which is enough
>>to get any rep out of his chair :)
>
>Don't be too hard on Atmel. It is the same for all silicon companies.
>They are in business to sell as many chips as possible. Therefore they
>will concentrate of the big companies and their distributors onthe
>smaller ones. 
>
>It costs as much to send a sample to a big company that will order
>thousands as a small company that will only take the samples. The
>problem is not so much cost as time (which costs money).
>
>TO send a sample to a company that is not going to buy any more parts
>probably costs 100 USD. Wages, shipping and TIME. 

Atmel doesn't need to apologize to anyone and no one needs to cut them
slack, either.  They simply are who they are.

Some companies will choose to specialize more towards one end of the
market, some towards the other end, and some may try and straddle
somewhere in between.  But it's wise to select partners who are
largely congruent with your own business model and to learn to avoid
more, those where their interests aren't nearly as well aligned.

Nothing magic; no excuses needed; no apologies.  Just select partners
where they value the mutual relationship and where there is a lot of
mutual ground in business direction (which helps you better estimate
the future of the relationship.)

Jon

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 08:32:06 +0000, Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org>
wrote:

><snip>
>I have found that business users have no problem getting samples. As you
>say you could call from work and get a sample.
><snip>

I wasn't "working from home."  It was serious business.  But Ulf does
say that there were systemic problems, then.

Jon

Chris Hills wrote:

> >You're correct that _I_ could go to my day job and call the Atmel rep
> >and say "I've got a personal project that could use a few samples".
>
> I have found that business users have no problem getting samples. As you
> say you could call from work and get a sample.
>
> Why would Atmel (or anyone ) supply free chips to home users?  You can
> buy them through Maplin etc

I wasn't asking for "free chips to a home user". It was a contract job.
I was trying to decide which part to design in for a client's project
with an estimated production volume of ~1500 per year and a production
life of 3 years. Not an enormous volume, to be sure, but not a hobby
project either. And those volumes were disclosed on the sample request
form.

When I want chips to play with for my own projects, I pay for them;
stop leaping to conclusions.

As a side note, I will point out that Freescale, Microchip, TI and
Analog Devices at least have been very generous with samples on parts
considerably more expensive than the micros in question, even when my
sample request is clearly labeled as a hobby project.

I don't want to talk to the reps at my day job about hobby projects
because I don't want to create a possibility of being accused of any
kind of conflict of interest when designing in parts. Work stuff is
work stuff, out-of-hours stuff is out-of-hours stuff. I find it hard to
believe that nobody else follows the same principle.

On 16 Jan 2006 09:20:12 -0800, "larwe" <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Chris Hills wrote:
>
>> >You're correct that _I_ could go to my day job and call the Atmel rep
>> >and say "I've got a personal project that could use a few samples".
>>
>> I have found that business users have no problem getting samples. As you
>> say you could call from work and get a sample.
>>
>> Why would Atmel (or anyone ) supply free chips to home users?  You can
>> buy them through Maplin etc
>
>I wasn't asking for "free chips to a home user". It was a contract job.
>I was trying to decide which part to design in for a client's project
>with an estimated production volume of ~1500 per year and a production
>life of 3 years. Not an enormous volume, to be sure, but not a hobby
>project either. And those volumes were disclosed on the sample request
>form.

I was pretty sure this would be your case, started to say so, and then
decided to let you speak for yourself on it.

My quantities were noted as between 2000-5000/yr, so in your ballpark.
We had an existing project we were converting that was already selling
at 5000/yr so the numbers were 'strong.'

>When I want chips to play with for my own projects, I pay for them;
>stop leaping to conclusions.

I looked back and can see the text you wrote that _might_ have led
Chris to assume otherwise -- though I have to admit that having read
it I didn't make that same assumption about you and don't know why he
chose to.

>As a side note, I will point out that Freescale, Microchip, TI and
>Analog Devices at least have been very generous with samples on parts
>considerably more expensive than the micros in question, even when my
>sample request is clearly labeled as a hobby project.

Indeed.  I also had some Analog Devices chips shipped in packaging
designed to keep humidity out that was probably way more expensive
than the chips themselves, too.  It was surprising to see so much care
just in packing them.  Never have I had the kind of grilling I got
from Atmel, though.

>I don't want to talk to the reps at my day job about hobby projects
>because I don't want to create a possibility of being accused of any
>kind of conflict of interest when designing in parts. Work stuff is
>work stuff, out-of-hours stuff is out-of-hours stuff. I find it hard to
>believe that nobody else follows the same principle.

I don't talk to reps about my hobby projects, at all.  Period.  I talk
to friends, read, use my own experiences, etc.

Jon

Hello Chris,

> 
> Don't be too hard on Atmel. It is the same for all silicon companies.
> They are in business to sell as many chips as possible. Therefore they
> will concentrate of the big companies and their distributors onthe
> smaller ones. 
> 

And that can be a huge mistake. It is the reason why my design-in rate 
for parts from several large European semi mfgs has plummeted from 
around 30% to nearly zilch. We are talking about stuff that went into 
mass production and still is, some of it for over 10 years now. And then 
they lament about sagging sales.

Suits me, I just would never buy stock in a company that thinks they can 
survive by catering to only the big ones.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

>Joerg =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=81=D0=B0:
>
> And that can be a huge mistake. It is the reason why my design-in rate
> for parts from several large European semi mfgs has plummeted from
> around 30% to nearly zilch. We are talking about stuff that went into
> mass production and still is, some of it for over 10 years now. And then
> they lament about sagging sales.

your case may be 1:10 000
recently I hear from local big name distributor complain that Harris
did last year $100K sample shipments to Bulgaria only for 6 month and
they decided to cut off this service
so somebody well abused their sample service (I guess this number
should be accumulated by shipping $1.00 logic chips by FedEx)
so you can imagine what happens in world wide measures and Atmel is one
of most popular vendors
If I was in Atmel shoes I would also left the local disti who know the
market better to decide who really need sample and who just is
harwesting free chips. If you really do design which later on go in
mass production they would recognize you as keypartner.

> Suits me, I just would never buy stock in a company that thinks they can
> survive by catering to only the big ones.

sad truth to all small co. is that they do just fine this way

Best regards
Tsvetan
---
PCB prototypes for $26 at http://run.to/pcb (http://www.olimex.com/pcb)
PCB any volume assembly (http://www.olimex.com/pcb/protoa.html)
Development boards for ARM, AVR, PIC, MAXQ2000 and MSP430
(http://www.olimex.com/dev)

In article <1137577090.974079.53510@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
tusunov@my-deja.com writes
>
>>Joerg 0 >>
>> And that can be a huge mistake. It is the reason why my design-in rate
>> for parts from several large European semi mfgs has plummeted from
>> around 30% to nearly zilch. We are talking about stuff that went into
>> mass production and still is, some of it for over 10 years now. And then
>> they lament about sagging sales.
>
>your case may be 1:10 000
>recently I hear from local big name distributor complain that Harris
>did last year $100K sample shipments to Bulgaria only for 6 month and
>they decided to cut off this service
>so somebody well abused their sample service (I guess this number
>should be accumulated by shipping $1.00 logic chips by FedEx)
>so you can imagine what happens in world wide measures and Atmel is one
>of most popular vendors
>If I was in Atmel shoes I would also left the local disti who know the
>market better to decide who really need sample and who just is
>harwesting free chips. If you really do design which later on go in
>mass production they would recognize you as keypartner.
>
>> Suits me, I just would never buy stock in a company that thinks they can
>> survive by catering to only the big ones.
>
>sad truth to all small co. is that they do just fine this way
>

What the silicon companies do is provide samples to the local
distributors. Most small distributors can get samples of anything. They
know the local market well. I know of many small  companies and one man
outfits who can easily get samples of almost anything. It depends who
you ask for samples. 

The system is not perfect but it works quite well. The problem is that
every home/hobby/acaddemic/student user wants free samples. They can buy
them at Maplin or use something else. 

Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
will be using all free/open source tools. IE they are putting no
investment in. So the distributor thinks there is nothing in it for them
and can see no reason to supply any parts. 

On the other hand if the designer calls up and says I need a dev kit and
or a compiler etc, or has bought tools from the distributor  before they
will be more inclined to support with parts. 

NOTHING is free in this life. It is a commercial world.

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris Hills wrote:
>
> Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
> contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
> will be using all free/open source tools. IE they are putting no
> investment in. So the distributor thinks there is nothing in it for them
> and can see no reason to supply any parts.

Yes, yes, the entire world is made a misery by the existence of GNU
tools, etc etc etc. The war in Iraq is a direct result of a threat by
Al Qaeda to replace their Windows server cluster with a rack of Linux
blades. The proximate cause of bird flu is the decision by several
Chinese embedded development houses to use gcc.

There are many good reasons for using open-source tools, and no matter
how you wiggle your worm (interpret this image however you see fit),
they are the right tool for the job in many cases. You also seriously
underestimate the downside of several tool vendors, probably due to the
fact that your contacts there are too good. Vendors that need to spread
FUD in order to promote their tools are also, at best, on shaky ground.

You need some new music methinks Chris; this tune hasn't changed in a
long time and it wasn't a particularly good one to begin with.