Ulf, what of these new AVRs? :)

Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org> writes:

> What the silicon companies do is provide samples to the local
> distributors. Most small distributors can get samples of anything. They
> know the local market well. I know of many small  companies and one man
> outfits who can easily get samples of almost anything. It depends who
> you ask for samples. 
>
> The system is not perfect but it works quite well. The problem is that
> every home/hobby/acaddemic/student user wants free samples. They can buy
> them at Maplin or use something else. 
>
> Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
> contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
> will be using all free/open source tools.

Semiconductor distributors do not generally ask me about tools. They
normally just want to know how many parts per year I expect to buy.

> IE they are putting no investment in. So the distributor thinks
> there is nothing in it for them and can see no reason to supply any
> parts.

I have never experienced this. Distributors are quite happy to send me
samples regardless. Even when just getting initial price and
availability, they are keen to send samples too. And this is for just
one or two hundred parts per year expected volume. For students etc. I
imagine the situation is different; you would not really expect a
semiconductor distributor to deal with private individuals at all.

> On the other hand if the designer calls up and says I need a dev kit and
> or a compiler etc, or has bought tools from the distributor  before they
> will be more inclined to support with parts. 

Isn't it unusual to buy the tools from the semiconductor distributor?
I am sure it does happen, but I would have thought that most people
buy from specialists in development systems.

> NOTHING is free in this life. It is a commercial world.

Hmmm, are you by any chance a commercial tools supplier? :)

-- 

John Devereux

In article <1137587727.532706.172980@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
larwe <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> writes
>
>Chris Hills wrote:
>>
>> Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
>> contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
>> will be using all free/open source tools. IE they are putting no
>> investment in. So the distributor thinks there is nothing in it for them
>> and can see no reason to supply any parts.
>
>Yes, yes, the entire world is made a misery by the existence of GNU
>tools, etc etc etc. 

You miss the point. It is a commercial world people only put out samples
to get sales.  The smaller distributors (unlike the big distis and
silicon vendors) are not looking for 100's of K of chip sales but are
still looking for sales of something. Usually dev kits and tools

The point was that some developers say I am not buying anything (now or
later) but give me samples. I have seen many time when developers want
everything for free so they can develop something to make money for
themselves. Then wonder why they don't see any free samples. Of course
if you write a book then the chip manufacturers will be friendly. :-)

Most developers I know have no trouble getting samples of anything.
(even some who evangelise GNU and free tools) but you have to remember
it is a two way street. Nothing is free in this life. You have to pay
for it one way or another. 

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In article <878xtdvhhv.fsf@cordelia.devereux.me.uk>, John Devereux
<jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> writes
>Chris Hills <chris@phaedsys.org> writes:
>
>> What the silicon companies do is provide samples to the local
>> distributors. Most small distributors can get samples of anything. They
>> know the local market well. I know of many small  companies and one man
>> outfits who can easily get samples of almost anything. It depends who
>> you ask for samples. 
>>
>> The system is not perfect but it works quite well. The problem is that
>> every home/hobby/acaddemic/student user wants free samples. They can buy
>> them at Maplin or use something else. 
>>
>> Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
>> contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
>> will be using all free/open source tools.
>
>Semiconductor distributors do not generally ask me about tools. They
>normally just want to know how many parts per year I expect to buy.

the smaller distributors also tend to carry tool lines as well but in
this case I was thinking of the tools distributors who carry samples.
Many do as a lot of places don't want to be hassled by silicon salesmen
asking how many how soon all the time. They tend to have quarterly sales
targets.

>> IE they are putting no investment in. So the distributor thinks
>> there is nothing in it for them and can see no reason to supply any
>> parts.
>
>I have never experienced this. Distributors are quite happy to send me
>samples regardless. Even when just getting initial price and
>availability, they are keen to send samples too.

Some are some aren't. Also it depends if they know you.. (which can be a
recursive argument.

> And this is for just
>one or two hundred parts per year expected volume. For students etc. I
>imagine the situation is different; you would not really expect a
>semiconductor distributor to deal with private individuals at all.

The problem is sorting out the wheat from the chaff. This is often where
it gets passed down the line from silicon company to distributor to the
smaller tools/silicon disti.

>> On the other hand if the designer calls up and says I need a dev kit and
>> or a compiler etc, or has bought tools from the distributor  before they
>> will be more inclined to support with parts. 
>
>Isn't it unusual to buy the tools from the semiconductor distributor?
>I am sure it does happen, but I would have thought that most people
>buy from specialists in development systems.

There are quit a few silicon distributors who do carry tools (and tend
to give them away as part of big chip sales) but also the tools
distributors usually carry samples.

>> NOTHING is free in this life. It is a commercial world.
>
>Hmmm, are you by any chance a commercial tools supplier? :)

Yes, I thought everyone knew that. Never made a secret of it. I have
presented at enough conferences and written enough articles not to try
and hide. Though I don't use a company sig or advertise on this NG. BTW
most of the tools and silicon companies have people on here. 

I also supply samples and have done so to people in this NG and this
thread. Even to those who argue against me on this topic and use GNU
tools :-) 

Chris

-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Chris Hills wrote:
>
> Most developers I know have no trouble getting samples of anything.
> (even some who evangelise GNU and free tools) but you have to remember

Your posting said in more or less these words that people who use free
tools won't get, and don't deserve, part samples, because they're cheap
bastards who will never make a profit for anyone (an inference that
clearly stems from the fact that these people don't make a profit for
YOU).

I've never been asked by a distributor what tools I intend to use. If I
WAS asked this question, I would seriously suspect the existence of a
kickback arrangement to that particular rep or his company.

I've only been asked about my toolchain by semi vendors when requesting
support, never at purchase/design-in time.

You might as well say that Maxim will only give samples of analog parts
to people if they know those people are working out their circuit
parameters with a particular brand of scientific calculator. Anyone who
is doing it with pencil and paper, or a free math simulator package, is
clearly not worthy of attention.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:49:04 +0000 in comp.arch.embedded, Chris Hills
<chris@phaedsys.org> wrote:

[...]
>Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
>contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
>will be using all free/open source tools. IE they are putting no
>investment in. So the distributor thinks there is nothing in it for them
>and can see no reason to supply any parts. 

This seems backwards to me.  No distributor I've talked to gave a
rat's patoot about what tools I used, as long as I bought his chip.

Indeed, the one time it did come up, the disti offered to supply
several seats of commercial tools at no cost, since we had never used
that micro in the past, and had no tools in-house.

I don't think disti's make their money from NRE.

Regards,
                                        -=Dave

-- 
Change is inevitable, progress is not.

Dave Hansen <iddw@hotmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:49:04 +0000 in comp.arch.embedded, Chris Hills
> <chris@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>
> [...]
>>Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
>>contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
>>will be using all free/open source tools. IE they are putting no
>>investment in. So the distributor thinks there is nothing in it for them
>>and can see no reason to supply any parts. 
>
> This seems backwards to me.  No distributor I've talked to gave a
> rat's patoot about what tools I used, as long as I bought his chip.
>
> Indeed, the one time it did come up, the disti offered to supply
> several seats of commercial tools at no cost, since we had never used
> that micro in the past, and had no tools in-house.
>
> I don't think disti's make their money from NRE.


Apparently he is talking about *development tool* distributors. Why
anyone would expect *them* to supply free chips is a mystery to me.


-- 

John Devereux

In article <1137592029.354141.187430@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
larwe <zwsdotcom@gmail.com> writes
>
>Chris Hills wrote:
>>
>> Most developers I know have no trouble getting samples of anything.
>> (even some who evangelise GNU and free tools) but you have to remember
>
>Your posting said in more or less these words that people who use free
>tools won't get, and don't deserve, part samples, because they're cheap
>bastards who will never make a profit for anyone (an inference that
>clearly stems from the fact that these people don't make a profit for
>YOU).

No so. I recall getting samples for you at one point. 


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

In article <874q41v5wu.fsf@cordelia.devereux.me.uk>, John Devereux
<jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> writes
>Dave Hansen <iddw@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:49:04 +0000 in comp.arch.embedded, Chris Hills
>> <chris@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>>Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
>>>contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
>>>will be using all free/open source tools. IE they are putting no
>>>investment in. So the distributor thinks there is nothing in it for them
>>>and can see no reason to supply any parts. 
>>
>> This seems backwards to me.  No distributor I've talked to gave a
>> rat's patoot about what tools I used, as long as I bought his chip.
>>
>> Indeed, the one time it did come up, the disti offered to supply
>> several seats of commercial tools at no cost, since we had never used
>> that micro in the past, and had no tools in-house.
>>
>> I don't think disti's make their money from NRE.
>
>
>Apparently he is talking about *development tool* distributors. Why
>anyone would expect *them* to supply free chips is a mystery to me.
>

A lot do. 


-- 
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
\/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills  Staffs  England     /\/\/\/\/
/\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org      www.phaedsys.org \/\/\
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:48:17 +0000, John Devereux
<jdREMOVE@THISdevereux.me.uk> wrote:

>Dave Hansen <iddw@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:49:04 +0000 in comp.arch.embedded, Chris Hills
>> <chris@phaedsys.org> wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>>Part of the problem is the attitude of some of the designers. They will
>>>contact a distributor and say I need samples and then go on to say they
>>>will be using all free/open source tools. IE they are putting no
>>>investment in. So the distributor thinks there is nothing in it for them
>>>and can see no reason to supply any parts. 
>>
>> This seems backwards to me.  No distributor I've talked to gave a
>> rat's patoot about what tools I used, as long as I bought his chip.
>>
>> Indeed, the one time it did come up, the disti offered to supply
>> several seats of commercial tools at no cost, since we had never used
>> that micro in the past, and had no tools in-house.
>>
>> I don't think disti's make their money from NRE.
>
>Apparently he is talking about *development tool* distributors. Why
>anyone would expect *them* to supply free chips is a mystery to me.

More often than I recall once happening, I'm seeing the IC vendors
supplying tools -- some at rather steep pricing.  If you look at
Analog Devices (for which I have long experience to draw upon), you
will see first that they provide the tools to use their ADSP-21xx
series for free.  It runs in DOS and works extremely well.  Any number
of seats you want -- they don't care, just buy their chips and they
are happy.  No problems with the tools.  Even their ice board, which
is a green circuit board with a push button in the middle, 4 rubber
glued-on pads underneath, and easy enough to use, was dirt cheap. Even
I bought one for personal use.

Then they shifted to Windows, bought up a developer group or two, and
shifted over to a complicated and painful registration process and
charged serious money for the tools (several thousand dollars, as I
recall.)  Now, they charge even more.  And the ICE systems aren't
cheap, either.  Now, you have to pony up some serious cash just to get
in the door.

Some manufacturers are definitely making the software a profit center
of its own.

Also, I also understand (from a number of conversations over the years
and trouble events I've experienced) that when the manufacturers used
to depend on outside software developers for their tools, their
manufacturing competition would sometimes "buy up" that company and
create a sudden trouble for their competition by refusing to continue
any relationship with them -- forcing them into disaster mode.  So,
perhaps some of this is inevitable defensive measures.  But in the
end, they are also deciding that beyond just being defensive, they are
also wanting to profit from the business of developing software and
not just the chips they sell.

Jon

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
> ......
>
> Some manufacturers are definitely making the software a profit center
> of its own.
>
> Also, I also understand (from a number of conversations over the years
> and trouble events I've experienced) that when the manufacturers used
> to depend on outside software developers for their tools, their
> manufacturing competition would sometimes "buy up" that company and
> create a sudden trouble for their competition by refusing to continue
> any relationship with them -- forcing them into disaster mode.  So,
> perhaps some of this is inevitable defensive measures.  But in the
> end, they are also deciding that beyond just being defensive, they are
> also wanting to profit from the business of developing software and
> not just the chips they sell.
>
> Jon

My suspicion is that there is more than just the profit behind this.
How much will a chip vendors revenue be affected by the sales of
development software? Obviously a tiny fraction of 1%...
It appears to be about control or something else we just cannot (yet)
guess... Let's hope time will show it before it is too late (i.e.
before
the big ones have killed off all small tech companies)....

Dimiter

------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff               Transgalactic Instruments

http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------